Drums - how am I doing?

[Tadpui]

Well it's 18 months later. My setup has gotten fancier, but my drumming and drum miking techniques haven't...

Since I already had the project created for my Morphine/Free mashup from a couple of weeks ago, I imported the template for my 12 mic setup in the living room and set off upon its maiden voyage. It was a short song, so I didn't wear myself out rehearsing and recording all of the takes.

So this is where I'm at. The mics were set up kind of quickly. Spot mics were all pretty much by memory. Overheads are Shure SM81s in an XY over the snare. Room mics are C414s spaced on either side of the far end of the room. SM57 on snare top and snare bottom. D6 as kick-in, Fathead as kick-out. MD421 on mid and floor toms, i5 on hi-tom. There was also a Fathead as a center mono room mic, but it's muted here.

I compressed the crap out of everything while mixing this at 2 in the morning, so...yeah...I could go back and do better. If you can listen past the copious compression, here's the processed drum bus (and processed master bus) soloed:

20210102 free morphine Drums Only.mp3

And this is the whole mix. Pardon the vocals. I re-recorded them late last night, and they definitely sound like they were sung at 1 in the morning

20210102 free morphine-008.mp3

So...what are some good next steps? I feel like they're lacking clarity. Like there's a haze over them. There is EQ on pretty much everything including the drum bus, mainly to control the low end and try to get the upper mids and highs to sparkle a bit more. I could probably spend more time checking the phase relationships between spot mics, overheads, and room mics.

[Greg_L]

It sounds like it was recorded well. To me the problem, as far as critical listening goes, is that it doesn't sound like "typical" drums so it's hard to really tell what things actually sound like. Everything is so squashed and hyped it sounds more like drums-for-effect than just a regular drum kit. As far as that goes, they sound great. Super bombastic and fat and wild. If that's what you want, you nailed it. But those drums wouldn't really work for a rock song or a blues song or a country song or any other kind of song. Give a more traditional raw drum recording a try and let's see how it goes.

[Tadpui]

It sounds like it was recorded well. To me the problem, as far as critical listening goes, is that it doesn't sound like "typical" drums so it's hard to really tell what things actually sound like. Everything is so squashed and hyped it sounds more like drums-for-effect than just a regular drum kit. As far as that goes, they sound great. Super bombastic and fat and wild. If that's what you want, you nailed it. But those drums wouldn't really work for a rock song or a blues song or a country song or any other kind of song. Give a more traditional raw drum recording a try and let's see how it goes.

Awesome, thanks man. Tomorrow night I'll sit down and just record everything raw and I'll put up the individual mics and the overall untouched drum bus. That should be a better starting point, rather than literally 6 compressors, who knows how many EQs, some saturation, etc. in 3 different layers

[vomitHatSteve]

Playing-wise, you have a lot of ride going on. I tend to find that to be the cymbal that most wants to make everything hazy and muddy.

I'd be inclined to agree with Greg about it being very hyped. For a hazy, stoner-y song like this one, raw drums with a lot of ride haze could work. Punchy, hypey drums would work for an overall cleaner, tighter song.

[Tadpui]

Playing-wise, you have a lot of ride going on. I tend to find that to be the cymbal that most wants to make everything hazy and muddy.

I'd be inclined to agree with Greg about it being very hyped. For a hazy, stoner-y song like this one, raw drums with a lot of ride haze could work. Punchy, hypey drums would work for an overall cleaner, tighter song.

I agree. This is my first and only ride that I've ever owned. I don't think that it sounds bad, but it really is loud compared to the other cymbals that I have. My overhead position might have something to do with it as well, and also how loud I have the overheads in the mix. Also, how hard I hit it while I'm playing. Jeez, there are so many layers where I can make a mistake. It's maddening!

And sorry, I didn't get around to re-tracking yet. I got caught up in house chores yesterday, and we had a few hours of rolling power outages today after work. Maybe tomorrow!

[Greg_L]

If I had to choose one over the other, I'd take a ride cymbal any day over hi hats.

[vomitHatSteve]

If I had to choose one over the other, I'd take a ride cymbal any day over hi hats.

Oof. Hard disagree.
The vast majority of the songs I've done drums for, the ride is just a bonus crash.

[Greg_L]

Oof. Hard disagree.
The vast majority of the songs I've done drums for, the ride is just a bonus crash.

Okay, fair enough, but let me counter with these questions...do you have a good ride cymbal and do you know how to use it?

You've probably heard more of my drum crap than anyone. Does the ride sound "hazy and muddy" to you? I don't think it does. I think I get an exceptionally clean and tight "ping" from my ride cymbals when I want to. Or I can make them go into a wild wash. Or get a big dingy bell sound. Ride cymbals do a whole lot of things when you use them the way they're supposed to be used.

This is a hill I will fight for and die on if necessary. RIDE CYMBALS RUUUUUULLLEEEEEE!

[WhiskeyJack]

[WhiskeyJack]

@Tadpui I totally can hear a kick ass drum recording in there but I think this might possibly be over done just a little tiny bit on the post end of things. I think the term I have read a few times now 'Hyped' is probably what I am hearing.

Your new set up is going to be a wealth of amazing recordings though. i think it was money well spent. I've been fairly busy and absent from here lately and i hate that, but duty calls. I saw a notification for your channel .. finally... and I'll watch that today on my lunch break hopefully!!! I can't wrap my head around the words and gear in here and i think the vid needs to be watched.

Lots of room to grow here though buddy.

[Tadpui]

You've probably heard more of my drum crap than anyone. Does the ride sound "hazy and muddy" to you? I don't think it does. I think I get an exceptionally clean and tight "ping" from my ride cymbals when I want to. Or I can make them go into a wild wash. Or get a big dingy bell sound. Ride cymbals do a whole lot of things when you use them the way they're supposed to be used.

This is a hill I will fight for and die on if necessary. RIDE CYMBALS RUUUUUULLLEEEEEE!

Any advice on "working" a ride cymbal? I mean, it's the biggest hunk of metal on an average kit, so it has the biggest variety of places to be struck. In my amateur learning so far, I've learned to just use the tip of the stick, hit it lightly about half-way in-between the edge and the bell, and try not to get carried away in how hard I'm hitting it as I work my other limbs and try not to drool on myself from concentrating too hard

I don't use the bell much, but when I do, I try to hit it with the shoulder of the stick. But it's so dang loud, it takes over everything else.

@Tadpui I totally can hear a kick ass drum recording in there but I think this might possibly be over done just a little tiny bit on the post end of things. I think the term I have read a few times now 'Hyped' is probably what I am hearing.

Your new set up is going to be a wealth of amazing recordings though. i think it was money well spent. I've been fairly busy and absent from here lately and i hate that, but duty calls. I saw a notification for your channel .. finally... and I'll watch that today on my lunch break hopefully!!! I can't wrap my head around the words and gear in here and i think the vid needs to be watched.

Lots of room to grow here though buddy.

Thanks WJ! I agree on the over-processing. I'll be redoing it with just raw drums (hopefully tonight) for a better starting point on where to go from there. Then I can take a less heavy-handed approach to post-processing and see how it goes.

I'm loving the setup so far, even though I still feel a little silly for buying such an extravagant setup. I'll get over it though

[vomitHatSteve]

Oof. Hard disagree.
The vast majority of the songs I've done drums for, the ride is just a bonus crash.

Okay, fair enough, but let me counter with these questions...do you have a good ride cymbal and do you know how to use it?

You've probably heard more of my drum crap than anyone. Does the ride sound "hazy and muddy" to you? I don't think it does. I think I get an exceptionally clean and tight "ping" from my ride cymbals when I want to. Or I can make them go into a wild wash. Or get a big dingy bell sound. Ride cymbals do a whole lot of things when you use them the way they're supposed to be used.

This is a hill I will fight for and die on if necessary. RIDE CYMBALS RUUUUUULLLEEEEEE!

True your ride does sound good. And i've seen some wizard drummers who are able to get a ton of interesting swishy sounds without taking over everything

But i've also seen a lot of heavy-handed drummers who crash on the ride every beat so that cymbals ring is all you can hear

My ride could probably be good since they're all virtual. But hats provide a larger variety of crisp sounds to fit in a dense mix. (EZD trying to replicate Spirits of the Red City would be laugable)

[Greg_L]

Any advice on "working" a ride cymbal? I mean, it's the biggest hunk of metal on an average kit, so it has the biggest variety of places to be struck. In my amateur learning so far, I've learned to just use the tip of the stick, hit it lightly about half-way in-between the edge and the bell, and try not to get carried away in how hard I'm hitting it as I work my other limbs and try not to drool on myself from concentrating too hard

I don't use the bell much, but when I do, I try to hit it with the shoulder of the stick. But it's so dang loud, it takes over everything else.

I don't know where I heard this, but I follow the "hit the drums hard, the cymbals not as hard" approach. I have a relatively light touch on the cymbals. I wallop the shit out of the drums though. Getting some "touch" on cymbals independent of what you're doing with the other hand is tricky. It's easy to hit everything with the same force. It's much harder to go light with one hand and heavy with the other. But if I can learn it, anyone can. That's something to work on.

Anyway, the only way to really utilize the zones of a ride cymbal is to just utilize the zones of a ride cymbal. You have to learn your cymbal and how hitting it differently yields different sounds. Like anything else it takes practice and familiarity. How you hold the stick matters. A proper grip lets you move the stick into positions that can give you a lot of versatility.

The closer you are to the bell the tighter and drier the ping will be. Hitting the bell with the shoulder of the stick will yield a thicker louder more focused ping. Use the tip on the bell and you get a smaller focused ping. The top third or so from the bell into the body is generally where the most focus is found. As you move into the body of the cymbal you'll start to get into more sustain and wash. You can ping the body with the tip and get little undertones of sustain and wash. Or you can "ride" the body of the cymbal with the shoulder of the stick and get a gong-like wash with no definition. And of course the edge of the cymbal will be crazy loud wash city. Sometimes you want that. Sometimes you don't.

How you hit the cymbal, any cymbal, matters too. Hats are their own thing, but crashes and rides share the same general technique for proper use and longevity. You don't usually ever really want to come straight down and through a cymbal. That is how they sound harsh and can break. You want to hit down on it, but then just as you make contact do a little flick of the wrist and kind of sweep it so instead of the stick going through the cymbal it kind of deflects off the top really fast. It's a subtle thing but it gets a lot of tone out of cymbals without a lot of destructive effort. If you ever want to ride a ride cymbal for that wash sound that's how you do it.

So yeah, just play and practice wit it. Ride cymbals fucking rule. Good drummers, like jazz drummers, will stay all day on that thing.

[Greg_L]

But i've also seen a lot of heavy-handed drummers who crash on the ride every beat so that cymbals ring is all you can hear

Well that's not the ride cymbal's fault!

[vomitHatSteve]

"A poor carpenter blames his tools" sure, but you wouldn't make it the standard that every unsupervised teenage woodworker's first tool kit contains a circular saw

[Greg_L]

"A poor carpenter blames his tools" sure, but you wouldn't make it the standard that every unsupervised teenage woodworker's first tool kit contains a circular saw

The hi-hat equivalent of the ride cymbal crimes you describe is to just bash away on wide open hats. Have you ever done that? It sounds far shittier than bashing on a ride cymbal. At it's most basic level bashing on open hi hats is bashing the shit out of two high pitched unruly cymbals banging in to each other. It's a racket.

[Tadpui]

OK, I sat down and hammered out several more tries. I tweaked a couple of mic positions, but I've still got a lot of experimenting to do. Most of my mic placements are based on things I've read and think I "should" do, rather than good old-fashioned experimenting and figuring out what works best for me. So that is in my near future.

I exported 10 seconds of individual stems, hopefully it's enough to get a feel for what the different mics sound like. No FX, no EQ, no compression, no gates, no saturation. Just straight-off-the-preamps recording. The overall drum mix is less of a "mix" and more of a "smoosh them all together because my wife is at the store and due back home any minute". I have both stereo condenser room mics and a mono ribbon room mic, and even though they're all in the drum mix, I probably wouldn't use them all at once. And one of these days, I'll finally get the feel of the swing of this song and be able to pull it off comfortable

(ack, I can't attach WAV files! OK, let me go export stems as MP3s and try again...)

Kick In (mono);

20210102 free morphine Kick In.mp3

Kick Out (mono):

20210102 free morphine Kick Out.mp3

Snare Top (mono):

20210102 free morphine Snare Top.mp3

Snare Bottom (mono):

20210102 free morphine Snare Bottom.mp3

Toms (stereo bus of all 3 spot mics):

20210102 free morphine Tom Folder.mp3

Overheads (stereo):

20210102 free morphine Overheads.mp3

Room Condensers (stereo track):

20210102 free morphine Room Condensers.mp3

Room Ribbon (mono):

20210102 free morphine Room Ribbon.mp3

And all of them together:

20210102 free morphine Drum Folder.mp3

[Greg_L]

I think it all sounds pretty good. Any critiques I have are just personal preference on tuning and mic position. That room sounds pretty nice.

[CrowsofFritz]

Drums sound gud.

[vomitHatSteve]

At it's most basic level bashing on open hi hats is bashing the shit out of two high pitched unruly cymbals banging in to each other. It's a racket.

Hah! True.

Tad, are you using all 3 room mics at once then? That seems like a good way to get phase issues.

The ride is a lot less dominant now.