Diminished Chords

[rayc]

Each key seems to have a Dim chord, whether it's 1/2, full augmented etc. & that's a part of the weirdness, yet they rarely appear in well established progressions or songs.
If they are essential to the key why aren't they used? If they aren't essential, and I know they're often difficult to name &/or play, what purpose is served other than another passing option?
I've been writing in A maj for a while & it has a G#dim. I can't get my fingers around that so I substitute a G#min often but I'm prone to substitutions becasue of my lack of chords under fingers as well as my odd ear.
Thoughts?

[vomitHatSteve]

As a punk songwriter, I've written a lot of songs where the 7th chord is just the same power chord I use everywhere else.

Very rarely have I ever used a proper diminished chord. Usually it's because I set out to do so rather than it sounding correct or natural. (My entry for JD's raga challenge used one for example)

That said odds are good that I occasionally include them in my sequencing because I'm not necessarily paying attention and Regdar plays to the key unless told otherwise.

[Greg_L]

As a punk songwriter, I've written a lot of songs where the 7th chord is just the same power chord I use everywhere else.

That ^^^^^

While I do usually alternate between the "proper" major and minor chords for a given key, I never concern myself with the diminished. Fuck that stupid thing. The 7th chord, if I use it at all, gets the non-binary gender fluid root/fifth/octave power chord. Works perfectly every time without fail.


Having said that, just learn different shapes of the same chord if your fingers don't like a certain position. There's always another way.

[JD01]

I barely every use it either. If I do, instead of a diminished chord I'll use the augmented vii chord. Just a root and a #5

[Lt. Bob]

lol .... it gets used in the music you guys dismiss ......
ya'll mostly are too good for say Steely Dan or jazz noodling and I base that on the many times I've heard ya'll denigrate that type of music ..... so if music that has more than power chords to it isn't on your radar then chords that are more than a biad wouldn't be that useful to ya'

[Greg_L]

ya'll mostly are too good for say Steely Dan

I don't know about the rest of these guys, but I am most definitely too good for Steely Dan.

[Lt. Bob]

ya'll mostly are too good for say Steely Dan

I don't know about the rest of these guys, but I am most definitely too good for Steely Dan.

that's what I'm saying!

[rayc]

You've probably heard in my songs that I'll use the letter of the chord and add min/7/maj as suits my playing. I'll try learning G#dim and suss out whether it works for me...I suppose I could hang on the dim to push up the need for resolution and then, do my usual, not resolve but that'd be thinking too far ahead of my hands.
I deliberately didn't mention "jazz" in the OP. The song book seems to be filled with former pop tunes that have had the chords augmented to near death in a ritual of apprentice attempting master works thing. Yet many jazzer bang on about "shell" chords and even dropping the root of shell chords so they are sketching the differences within an ensemble. Let's take C, make it a C7 then engineer a C7(b9,b13) {C Bb Ab, Db E} but drop evrything just keep Bb & Ab perhaps?
I like pretty chords but the closest I come to playing one is Am7 or, maybe, D sus 2.

[JD01]

I like Steely Dan and weird chords too.
They're effectively used in rock and punk more that you think.

When you have those power chord sequences with the sliding octave chord shape over the top, it's often picking out 6th and 7th of the chord.

[muttley]

I use them all the time. Great for substituting into many progressions instead of the standard V7 use a dim one semitone up. Diminished triads are just stacked minor thirds above the root. You can move them up or down by three semitones and the chord is repeated with a different inversion. The root almost becomes irrelevant. Lots of jazz throughout the last hundred years has made good use of them as a tension device and soloing device.

I'm not huge on Steely Dan though. Not since the early 80's.

[muttley]

lol .... it gets used in the music you guys dismiss ......
ya'll mostly are too good for say Steely Dan or jazz noodling and I base that on the many times I've heard ya'll denigrate that type of music ..... so if music that has more than power chords to it isn't on your radar then chords that are more than a biad wouldn't be that useful to ya'

[rayc]

a) I use them all the time. Great for substituting into many progressions instead of the standard V7 use a dim one semitone up.
b) of jazz throughout the last hundred years has made good use of them as a tension device and soloing device.

Ah,
a) interesting but that takes solid knowledge, an excellent vocabulary and thinking on the fly (that's jazz) which are attributes I lack.
b) That's the one explanation I've found that is reasonably common creating lots of tension before returning to the one.

There I have it...worth asking the question. Jazz - a lot, rock - not often, substitutions - mainly.

Steely Dan are tainted by experience with me. At teachers' college, 76-78, most folk were into America, Stevie Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles and Steely Dan. The halls of residence were filled with harmonies, pitter patter rhythm and not much else. Smooth ruled and the band needed to be sonically bland.
I did take the opportunity to acquaint myself with S.D.'s catalogue 20 years later and know they were better than that but they still don't resonate.

[vomitHatSteve]

I really have no opinion on Steely Dan. I know the name is a reference to Naked Lunch... and that's about it. They sound kind of like the Blue Oyster Cult songs that aren't "Don't Fear the Reaper", right?

[muttley]

I really have no opinion on Steely Dan. I know the name is a reference to Naked Lunch... and that's about it. They sound kind of like the Blue Oyster Cult songs that aren't "Don't Fear the Reaper", right?

They kind of define what has now become known as "Yacht Rock".

[rayc]

I really have no opinion on Steely Dan. I know the name is a reference to Naked Lunch... and that's about it. They sound kind of like the Blue Oyster Cult songs that aren't "Don't Fear the Reaper", right?

Ah, that sort of matches my thoughts on The Blue Oyster Cult: MOR/AOR except for Reaper. I know that's a little exaggerated but for the Agents of Fortune album particularly this seems to be the case.

[rayc]

Yacht Rock isn't a clear label is it?
I've think Christopher Cross & stuff like that. Soft rock or, more appropriately, soft cock rock.
The Dan..well, obviously I like some of their stuff - some classic hits and just classics.
Dad Rock is another that's definition has slipped its moorings...initially it seemed to describe young rockers who'd grown & mellowed like Paul Weller, then described music dads liked and now refers to older male people making their version of whatever it is they're doing.
That makes almost everyone in RR land a dad rocker I suppose.
Would Home Dad Rock Recordists be even further down the food chain?

[muttley]

I think the issue with Steely Dan was the length of time it took them to produce stuff and the fact that they celebrated it. They came to typify exactly what youth culture and music moved against in the late 70's and 80's with punk and new wave. Endless press releases about forthcoming albums and how much studio time they were absorbing. I liked them for a bit but once I got a handle on what they were doing sonically and harmonically I realised it was all in the production, many bands and genres were doing that stuff on the fly and had done for years.

As for Yacht Rock, yeh I guess it has become a pejorative term but so have many other genre labels, I don't care really I like some of it and don't like some of it, some of it I'm indifferent to. Just like all genre classifications the boundaries are blurred and the merits are only for you or I to take or dismiss. I often play what would now be classed as Yacht Rock stations or playlists when driving long distances. Some of it is cool some not so much.

[Greg_L]

Serious musicians always get so worked up over Steeley Dan. It's just slow uneventful soft rock from the 70s. Relax. I had one drummer guy try to lecture me one time because I have no opinion of Steve Gadd. How dare I call myself a drummer if I don't worship Steve Gadd and spin Aja 24/7. For one, I'm not a drummer, I'm just a guy that can play the drums a little. Two, Steve Gadd is an amazing world-class drummer that makes music I don't care to listen to. That's all it is to me. You can be the best player in the world, but if you're using your skills to make music that doesn't interest me then your greatness means nothing to me. I don't listen to songs for the guitar playing or the drumming. I have a friend that always recommends stuff for me to listen to and it's always prefaced with "great guitar playing". "Check this band out, great guitar playing" and then I play it and it's some hair metal shred nonsense. Great musicians in terrible songs is a waste of talent.

[JD01]

Great musicians in terrible songs is a waste of talent.

Sounds like Van Halen.

[Greg_L]

Sounds like Van Halen.

It is exactly Van Halen. And Steeley Dan. And Whitesnake. And Asia. and about eleventy hundred other safe and sterile rock bands.