One take

[Armistice]

This is sort of further to a discussion we had elsewhere about methods of recording - and what different people do.

So I have made up the basis for a new tune in the attachment... just picked up the guitar yesterday morning after watching a YouTube about guitar intros that make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end... and they weren't at all anything I expected, or indeed, mostly even heard before. So that was interesting and got me thinking I need to do something a little different, style-wise, so grabbed el Dues, and started noodling.

Came up with the thing below. At this stage I've played it through probably at least 50 times. And it's nowhere near good enough for actual recording yet because of the nature of what it is. Mostly it's simple but I'm using the technique I use on Jongleurs' acoustic tracks on an electric guitar - so combo pick and fingers. But the bit at the end of every verse isn't simple at all and it's pretty counterintuitive, so it's only just now that I'm starting to get that to a stage where I'm controlling the individual string volumes well enough and getting the timing right and the emphasis right - so understanding that the D is louder than the low E and that the high E could probably be a bit louder as well, and trying to work that through into the playing as I go. Ideally I'd go up a gauge in strings to do this - fingerpicking on an electric is not the easiest thing to do - bigger strings help, but that would involve way too much work on the guitar I'm mainly playing at the moment which I'd have to undo again later.

Then, it's drenched in reverb and delay - I don't know how it's going to end up, arrangement wise, but it'll be pretty sparse - and I'm tracking with the reverb and delay on - because if I turn it off and just track dry, then it's really hard to get into the feel of the piece. Probably I could in time, but that will mean much more practice. Now with tracking with reverb and delay on, even the slightest string scrape echoes off into the distance in an obvious fashion. This will happen with tracking dry as well, of course, but by tracking wet you hear it instantly, and go, "Nope. Stop. Rewind. Start again!" Maybe not so obvious tracking dry, and your killer take may end up being not so killer at all. So I track wet.

Listening back to this I can hear so many issues - timing in particular - but if it was live, with a bass player, drummer and a singer, I'd probably be happy with it.

So when I do track it for an actual keeper recording I will probably never manage a single take because after 2 minutes, the strings are really starting to stick to my fingers on my left hand because I've been playing it a lot and I'm starting to cut the surfaces up a bit. So I will undoubtedly have to so a sequential assembly when I do it for keeps - by that I mean, start, then keep going until I make a mistake then pick up from wherever I can before that point with the next attempt, and so on - rather than try half a dozen takes and comp the keeper track from that.

Anyway, lots more practice to do yet - I may surprise myself - but in my head I'm already chopping it into verses and I'll be aiming to get just a verse at a time - that being the only place you can really elegantly cut in and out anyway...

Apart from all that - I really like the piece of music. New guitar syndrome - damn, I've just written another nice piece... Good problem to have.

[Armistice]

Urghh.... just had a proper listen... that last verse is particularly ugly. Lots of notes I didn't quite hit right...

[JD01]

Nice sounding piece, Armi. You do do a good, almost crystal clean sound. Looking forward to hearing the final version of this. More crime scene music?
I know what you mean about it being hard to play something start to finish. I always try and achieve this though, but then my music is nowhere near as intricate on the whole and I generally play with more gain than you. Sometimes a new guitar is worth getting just for the inspiration!

With regard to punching in generally, I find it becomes really obvious if you have more than a couple of parts punching in in the same place - its nice to have a couple of continuing pieces over the top to paper over the cracks. Normally quite easy for me as I usually have a single rhythm part using one tone going through the song from start to finish.

One thing I'm always punching in with is bass. I don't really enjoy playing bass and I tend to write as I record. I basically rough my structure out, hear the bassline in my head, work it out for a section, record it then immediately forget it. Can be problematic when I re-arrange things as I often have to work stuff out again. If I had to play bass for a gig's worth of my own songs it would take me months of practice to learn the songs.

[Armistice]

I think the next album now has to be called "Noir"...

With you on the bass @JD01 - I'll use my sequential assembly technique on bass normally - go until I stuff it up and then continue from that point - and then when I'm mixing notice the timing is about out here and there and do a bit of surgery. We can't all be Jaco Pastorious or @vomitHatSteve ...

As I listen back to this piece I'm astonished how far I am from playing it well enough to record. Back to the practice...

[Greg_L]

because after 2 minutes,

There's your problem! Just stop there.

[Lt. Bob]

I think the next album now has to be called "Noir"...

With you on the bass @JD01 - I'll use my sequential assembly technique on bass normally - go until I stuff it up and then continue from that point - and then when I'm mixing notice the timing is about out here and there and do a bit of surgery. We can't all be Jaco Pastorious or @vomitHatSteve ...

As I listen back to this piece I'm astonished how far I am from playing it well enough to record. Back to the practice...

Nice future tunage there man.


are you using a click? if not then a click might help a bit.

I don't use clicks actually, I'll use a drum pattern on my keyboard but even if it's something I intend for no percussion to come anywhere near, I'll still use a drum track to track with because it helps to keep the time and 'feel'.

In fact just late last night I was working on something classical with my Aerophone .... gonna be like a 4 part invention with violins, cello and bass.
Spent most of last night looking for a drum beat that would have the right 'feel' for it even though there will be no percussion in the final mix.

Even if it's something that's physically challenging, a drum track can make it seem less so because part of your brain isn't having to also keep the time.

[vomitHatSteve]

I think the next album now has to be called "Noir"...

With you on the bass @JD01 - I'll use my sequential assembly technique on bass normally - go until I stuff it up and then continue from that point - and then when I'm mixing notice the timing is about out here and there and do a bit of surgery. We can't all be Jaco Pastorious or @vomitHatSteve ...

As I listen back to this piece I'm astonished how far I am from playing it well enough to record. Back to the practice...

Jokes on you! My bass lines are full of punches!

The live stuff I do, I just use enough distortion to cover the mistakes.

So the tune sounds nice. As sparse as it is, timing on the guitar does stick out, but it would be better with full instrumentation.
If you want to do punch ins, you'll probably need to track dry tho. The reverb will make those vertical clips way more obvious.

[Armistice]

because after 2 minutes,

There's your problem! Just stop there.

It was originally under two minutes but I thought, no, I need to make it longer ... can't do my Nick Cave vocal stylings in just 2 minutes...

[Armistice]

I think the next album now has to be called "Noir"...

With you on the bass @JD01 - I'll use my sequential assembly technique on bass normally - go until I stuff it up and then continue from that point - and then when I'm mixing notice the timing is about out here and there and do a bit of surgery. We can't all be Jaco Pastorious or @vomitHatSteve ...

As I listen back to this piece I'm astonished how far I am from playing it well enough to record. Back to the practice...

Nice future tunage there man.


are you using a click? if not then a click might help a bit.

I don't use clicks actually, I'll use a drum pattern on my keyboard but even if it's something I intend for no percussion to come anywhere near, I'll still use a drum track to track with because it helps to keep the time and 'feel'.

In fact just late last night I was working on something classical with my Aerophone .... gonna be like a 4 part invention with violins, cello and bass.
Spent most of last night looking for a drum beat that would have the right 'feel' for it even though there will be no percussion in the final mix.

Even if it's something that's physically challenging, a drum track can make it seem less so because part of your brain isn't having to also keep the time.

No, no click. When I actually record it I'll use a click - and like you I do a drum pattern with rhythm to it rather than just a metronome. But I'm still at the learning to play it stage. But I was aware as I was going that a part of my brain was saying "Stop speeding up..." and there's a hesitation just at the chorded bit because I was thinking about whether some sort of downward slide might work (no!). I might try a click today and see how I go.

[Armistice]

I think the next album now has to be called "Noir"...

With you on the bass @JD01 - I'll use my sequential assembly technique on bass normally - go until I stuff it up and then continue from that point - and then when I'm mixing notice the timing is about out here and there and do a bit of surgery. We can't all be Jaco Pastorious or @vomitHatSteve ...

As I listen back to this piece I'm astonished how far I am from playing it well enough to record. Back to the practice...

Jokes on you! My bass lines are full of punches!

The live stuff I do, I just use enough distortion to cover the mistakes.

So the tune sounds nice. As sparse as it is, timing on the guitar does stick out, but it would be better with full instrumentation.
If you want to do punch ins, you'll probably need to track dry tho. The reverb will make those vertical clips way more obvious.

I never punch in. I'll go as long as I can and when I stuff up I go back to the last natural pause - and I usually have natural pauses - then pick up a bar or two before on a new track and continue again for as long as I can. Then go back, snip in the right place, just before it kicks off, with a few ms of overlap and push the track up. Because you have the ambient sound from the few bars before as it dies down, even with heavy effects, you can't tell.

But actually go, I need to redo these 4 bars in the middle, never. Sequential assembly.

[rayc]

Nice chime on the guitar and really nice progression.
I usually record for as long as I can before I stuff up and then start a new track just before that and so on.
I rarely learn a song well enough to play it through without stuffing up though.
I am better at it these days. BIAB has a DAW "plugin" that allows the user to pull up the chord sheet in Reaper and it works through the chord sheet IN real TIME...it can even be amended in Reaper.
Mind you, yesterday I had so many cracks at recording rhythm guitars that I was able to play right through on the last couple of passes. Bits of skin missing from finger tips today.
Bass...I, generally, record a very simple part with the basic rhythm initially. Once I've that sorted and some guitars in place I TRY to think of walks/runs/riffs that'll fit into the scheme and I thin try to get them down as part of the whole bass track....that's where & when I end up tracking verses and choruses separately as I've made things too hard for my self.
I was experimenting with regions in Reaper last week in an attempt to make use of the best parts I've tracked BUT setting markers for the region so that the resultant blocks of song fit back together is hard...too hard to bother with. I could probably do it with drums n bass but guitars are not going to happen...holds and little things make it bad for me.

[Greg_L]

It really just depends on the instrument and who's playing it.

For me, for example, I sometimes have to do bass in shifts. I'm not a bass player. The only time I touch, or even look at a bass is to record it. And I play with a pick like I'm playing guitar so my pick pinching muscles get tired. What's the meaty thumb muscle on your palm called? That one. Whatever that muscle is, it sometimes gets tired on me playing bass. Then I get sloppy. So I stop, reset the markers, roll the take back and pick it up from from my last good performance spot. No problem. It's just bass.

For everything else I can usually blast through in one take. I might not want to keep that take, but I don't do anything so difficult that it can't be done in one complete run through.

[liv_rong]

I think this sounds great, it reminds me of a Russian band called Echoes and Signals.

For me I usually write a part and attempt to track it all in one go, to keep the tails and everything in the extensive and delay I use. Then for the 2nd guitar I piece it out, typically.

[liv_rong]

@Armistice I was playing around with this just now, a few beers and no click, so very sloppy. But if you want to try to colab on this lets do it. If you dont its all good man, fun playing along anyways!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwf46hnut4aff ... 4.mp3?dl=0

[Armistice]

That's nice stuff @liv_rong - I've actually tracked it properly since starting this thread, and put bass and VSTI drums to it already, but it'd be cool to have real drums if you want to have a stab ... although my previous attempt to mix real drums was a nightmare, but it'll be a learning experience for me!

It definitely lends itself to the style you're playing, and it's not a zillion miles from where I went with it myself, although I've gone big on the toms.

I'll render it both with my drums as a full stereo mix so you can see what I did and then remove the drums and give you a straight click, and put most of the click in one ear and most of the tune in the other, if that would help? Or any other way that you'd like it, so just let me know if you want it another way.

I'll do it later this afternoon (here) which will probably be after you're tucked up in bed... so check the thread tomorrow and it'll be there.

[liv_rong]

That's nice stuff @liv_rong - I've actually tracked it properly since starting this thread, and put bass and VSTI drums to it already, but it'd be cool to have real drums if you want to have a stab ... although my previous attempt to mix real drums was a nightmare, but it'll be a learning experience for me!

It definitely lends itself to the style you're playing, and it's not a zillion miles from where I went with it myself, although I've gone big on the toms.

I'll render it both with my drums as a full stereo mix so you can see what I did and then remove the drums and give you a straight click, and put most of the click in one ear and most of the tune in the other, if that would help? Or any other way that you'd like it, so just let me know if you want it another way.

I'll do it later this afternoon (here) which will probably be after you're tucked up in bed... so check the thread tomorrow and it'll be there.

Sweet, yeah send me with and without drums and I’ll try! Please send without a click and just tell me the bpm, maybe a count in if you’d like.

[Tadpui]

I think that I was in an antisocial bout when you posted this originally. But finally listening now that Liv resurrected the thread. I really like that tone and the ambiance on it. Solid playing, and you've got a feel for the trem bar already. Those pickups have a nice bite to them when you dig in a bit, but they also sound great with the softer touch that makes up the main feel throughout. It'll be cool to see what Liv comes up with on this one. He's a good drummer.

[Armistice]

Here you go @liv_rong

As it stands at the moment...

Idea 5 - no vox - mix 2.mp3

With a 2 bar count in and no drums...

Idea 5 - no drums count in.mp3

BPM is 93.

Have fun!

[Armistice]

I think that I was in an antisocial bout

Noted in your file...

My main use for the vibrato is just a little wobble at the end of a phrase.

Sounds pretty cool when you double track a piece and you never get quite the same wobble - or you can deliberately do a different wobble, but I haven't done that here... one main guitar and a couple of other minor parts, bass, drums.