In There Somewhere ...ALMOST finished

[rayc]

This is almost done.
A local bloke is going to do the lead work but has to fit it around work. He's actually going to visit & record at my place.
In the meantime I've tweaked this a fair bit: as well as my ears allow so any suggestions would be useful.

ALL guitar tones are from my Marshall.
Bass is through a BDI21 - WITH some added overdrive ITB
Drums are BIAB as is the organ.
Vox, sadly, are by me.
I worked at them slowly and had to do quite a few drop ins etc.
The lyrics as written are below but I was unable to sing the variations at the end of the choruses so ended up just repeating the same one.
Tweaked mix...louder vocals (that did bring up some issues with sibilant sounds...I think I've minimized those)...

AmajAGAINP.mp3

HERE's a less dense vocal version as debated...

Less dense and a little louder.
For me the vocals are WAYYYY too loud but that's the cringe factor as well as preference in music I think.
(even when I hit a note - and in this one I mostly come within cooee - it's not pleasant), I've also addressed some of the strident edge to the vocal I THINK.

AmajAGAINsimpvxC.mp3

IN THERE SOMEWHERE

Reason with the logic rhyming riddles for a song
But the words don’t come together something definitely went wrong
The smiling clown went away for good to the circus, city, sewer
He was running out of lives & his mask was so much truer
He was running out of life & the options are fewer

There is no rhyme or reason
For feeling like you do
No, no definite rhyme or reason
But the focus is on you.
So come my bleeding jester
Entertain the gawking crowd
No definite rhyme or reason
Just the genes you’ve been endowed

The man was in there somewhere beneath his rhyme there was no reason
His façade would someday crumble his humour his treason
& they laughed at your insanity no prying eyes to look inside
But their laughter was inanely aimed at the mask in which you hide
But their laughter was inane again, as they line up to take a side

There is no rhyme or reason
For feeling like you do
No, no definite rhyme or reason
But the focus is on you.
So come my bleeding jester
Entertain the gawking crowd
No definite rhyme or reason
Just the voices getting loud

There is no rhyme or reason
For feeling like you do
No, no definite rhyme or reason
But the focus is on you.
So come my bleeding jester
Entertain the gawking crowd
No definite rhyme or reason
Just applause of a thundercloud,

[JD01]

Ray - this sounds pretty tidy.
I know how much you'll hate this, but the vocals are too quiet.
Sounds like you've got lots of double tracking and stuff going on there, just bring the lead up, not everything else. Hopefully this will help the lead cut through and not make the whole thing sound really wet.

[rayc]

[mention]JD01[/mention],
Thanks James,
No actual double tracking but a fair bit of unison gang stuff.
I did try harmonies but the change in key hurt my brain and digital harmony treatment sounded just like one would expect.
I was certain the vocal was too loud...I'll do as suggested though - the whole song or just the chorus?

[JD01]

I just thought they were too quiet throughout.
I couldn't really tell what you were saying and even with the lyrics in front of me it sometimes took me a while to work out where you were.

[rayc]

I just thought they were too quiet throughout.
I couldn't really tell what you were saying and even with the lyrics in front of me it sometimes took me a while to work out where you were.

Ta,
that's why I need other folk's ears.
Shall address it in the morning.

[vomitHatSteve]

+1 to JD's vote on box being a little buried throughout.

I like the drum energy you have on this one.

[rayc]

@[mention]JD01[/mention] & [mention]vomitHatSteve[/mention],
Vocals lifted.

[vomitHatSteve]

Yeah, definitely clearer.

[Greg_L]

I like this Ray. Sounds great. My only critique would be to get the vocals clearer. Your vocals are getting so much better, let's hear them better. I don't know if it's the doubling, processing, or what, but it's losing clarity and oomph. Whatever you're doing is working against you. The consonants are cut off, the Fs and Ss don't sound like anything. Strip the vocals down some and let them be clear.

Another thing about doubling vocals for all you guys that keep doing it - stop. Unless you really nail the pitch, timing, and phrasing, it's not good. It always makes things worse unless you do it very well. It's also unnecessary. One good vocal track is better than a bunch of mediocre vocal tracks stacked together.

[JD01]

On the double tracking thing... I stopped double tracking 'cos my singing was rubbish in that my pitch and timing were inconsistent, so while it was a slight comfort for my shite vocals it sounded like a mess.

After single tracking for ages, getting more confident in my voice and improving my singing a lot I've actually start double tracking again a bit but I only have the 2nd one really low in the mix compared with the lead, just to make things sound thicker.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, double track, fine, but listen to both tracks together completely dry and at the same volume. If you're noticing discrepancies between then you're going to have to do them again until you get them right. Then, whichever one is gonna be your backing, just bring it up in the mix gradually until you hear it supporting your lead but not to the point that you're really obviously doubled.

[Greg_L]

Why would you want "thick" vocals though? I can see it for background vocals, but why would you want the lead vocal all thick and mucky?

You're not hiding anything. It's a like a fat person wearing really baggy clothes. We still know you're fat under there. Proper fitting clothes regardless of body shape looks better than trying to hide under baggy clothes.

Best analogy ever ^^^^

[JD01]

Why would you want "thick" vocals though? I can see it for background vocals, but why would you want the lead vocal all thick and mucky?

You're not hiding anything. It's a like a fat person wearing really baggy clothes. We still know you're fat under there. Proper fitting clothes regardless of body shape looks better than trying to hide under baggy clothes.

Best analogy ever ^^^^

Maybe thick isn't the right term. It does make them sound more powerful. You've got a pretty strong voice anyway.
Been listening to a lot of isolated vocal tracks recently to try and work out how they were recorded. Even really powerful singers like James Hetfield or Ed Vedder often seem to have double tracking going on. Dr. Graffin never double tracks though and he sounds great.
Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORgujFsXb9E

Sorry, Ray - thread hi-jack

[Greg_L]

Maybe thick isn't the right term. It does make them sound more powerful. You've got a pretty strong voice anyway.
Been listening to a lot of isolated vocal tracks recently to try and work out how they were recorded. Even really powerful singers like James Hetfield or Ed Vedder often seem to have double tracking going on. Dr. Graffin never double tracks though and he sounds great.
Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORgujFsXb9E

Sorry, Ray - thread hi-jack

But that's exactly my point. Listen to that Bad Religion take. It's a single vocal with a shit ton of bleed. And it's probably their most successful song. And he's not a great singer, but he makes it work because it's real. That's who and what he is. Stupid Hetfield and Vedder would sound fine just as they are too.

I'd say smart use of delay and reverb is better than double tracking unless you do it really well.

[vomitHatSteve]

Doubling a part can act as a compression effect. I use that pretty often. During the louder parts of the arrangement, precise doubling can help the vocal cut through the mix without needing to automate the volume as heavily.

Of course, it can also emphasize flaws (I'm looking at you Danny "Poison" Elfman)

I used to double everything as a rule in my early recordings. Nowadays, I track the doubled part,* but I edit out 75%+ of it.

For a new recorder, I'd be careful about recommending delay and reverb to sweeten their vox too much too. Otherwise you get that awful Bon Iver/Fleet Foxes/whatever garbage nu folk sound.

* Technically, I do 3 parts, but the backgrounds are hard-panned so that it's effectively double-tracked. Even more pedantically, I record at least 5 good takes to comp down to 3 good ones.

[WhiskeyJack]

What is the purpose of double tracking a lead vocal exactly? Why is that thing?

Anyways.

DANG Ray!!! This was a fun listen buddy! I'll echo previous sentiments RE: The double tracked vocals. they don't have the nice sheen they probably should, and this vocal performance of yours is genuinely amazing AFAIC. Like dude, who is this new Ray guy belting his guts out!? It's needs the sparkle and dominance in the mix for sure. This is probably one of your more lively and passionate performances yet! It's awesome. each one keeps getting better. Why sully it up with parlor tricks? Back to the double tracking though, far be it form me to be a jury member against another persons creative choices but the doubling thing just sound dated. The technique also has a robotic almost "autotune" like phasey chorusesness to it my ears simply don't love.

Some very good points made here for the for and against by James and Gregory but I would throw my vote behind against. At least for the verses! I don't think the verses need that kind of treatment.

Another one with your BIAB drums sounding awesome and your guitars are mint as well. I love all the little off note thingy you through into your arrangements to keep it fun!

[Lt. Bob]

well one thing double tracking a vocal is useful for is the same thing double tracking a guitar part is.
No way they're ever exactly the same so you end up with phase cancellations that work like a chorus and hide pitch imperfections.

However, the two parts have to be VERY close and it's quite hard for most folks to do that.

try the automatic double tracking aka beatles where you put a superfast delay on the vocal and then pan the un-delayed and the delayed vocal slightly apart.
I'm talking very short delay .... much shorter than a rockabilly slapback ..... so short that you can't really hear there's a delay at all.
The panning can even be hard left and right but usually works better if they're not that spread out

[WhiskeyJack]

try the automatic double tracking aka beatles where you put a superfast delay on the vocal and then pan the un-delayed and the delayed vocal slightly apart.

You know, I have always wanted to try this and never have. I remember reading about this from someone else over at the other site!! I might just do this actually on a cover i got cooking.

So for a daw user how i would set something like that up? I think i have a rough idea of how to go about doing it. But curious how someone else would set that up? I'll have to muck with this.

[JD01]

I'm not saying one this right and one is wrong... double tracking is just a thing that can he used sometimes. Like Greg and Bob have said though it can present its own problems too... since getting my new mic I've been singing a lot more and have actually started to enjoy it... had some fun double tracking today.

[WhiskeyJack]

I'm not saying one this right and one is wrong... double tracking is just a thing that can he used sometimes. Like Greg and Bob have said though it can present its own problems too... since getting my new mic I've been singing a lot more and have actually started to enjoy it... had some fun double tracking today.

NO one here is saying it is right or wrong? At the end of the day if you lot are happy and comfortable with your double tracked performances that is great. There is a time, place and application for anything at all. Might not sound good but everything is workable. This is coming from a guy who has spent over a week or longer simmering in [mention]vomitHatSteve[/mention]s creative juices. Jesus Christ. The head on that guy.

In this particular case I don't feel it is lending anything positive to this song. His Canned drums are convincing enough to be organic, his guitars and playing are organic and feel real and human. to me, his new lungs and confidence in his vocal performance don't need that weird sound of double tracked vox? It's a texture that isn't warranted. He'd still sound great and awesome without the added layer of extra ray. it doesn't sound thick or powerful. to me it sounds robotic, smacks of the 80's and feels synthetic. Robbing it of clarity as well is also a key element of why i am not digging it.

It doesn't help that generally speaking i don't care for the sound of double tracked vox so i am biased but specifically in this case, it's not adding any wow factor at all. At least not in the verses. Unnecessary.

I want to hear an Organic ray!!!!!

[vomitHatSteve]

Organic ray!!!!!

Available now at trader Joes!