Better In The Evening

[JD01]

OK, this is the one that I posted up the rhythm guitar tone for in The Tone Thread at the start of the week.
Got a loads of work done on the vocals today. Dunno if I'll add any more lead guitars, probably just a couple more licks here and there in the empty bits, although I do quite like the sound of the hard panned rhythm guitars on their own.

Better In The Evening Mix 1.mp3

Oh, and after chatting to Greg in The Tone Thread I ended up making a small cut to the bass at 150hz and it seemed to help noticeably actually.

[SweetDan]

Nice gtrs. I like the vocal harmony parts too.
The lead vocal sounds a bit subdued, like you may have cut some frequencies in the clarity/presence range (2-5k). If you did cut there, try easing up the cut to bring back some of the good stuff. If you didn't cut there, maybe something lower down is masking it? Or maybe it needs a boost or some grit in that frequency range?

EDIT/clarification - the vocal performance is great, but the tone of the vocal doesn't have the shine and aggression it maybe should for the style of the tune.

[rayc]

That 1st vocal line seems to fade in.
Otherwise I like the package.

[JD01]

That 1st vocal line seems to fade in.
Otherwise I like the package.

Cheers Ray, I think the tail of the lead guitar line is stepping on it - I've faded that off more quickly now.

[JD01]

Nice gtrs. I like the vocal harmony parts too.
The lead vocal sounds a bit subdued, like you may have cut some frequencies in the clarity/presence range (2-5k). If you did cut there, try easing up the cut to bring back some of the good stuff. If you didn't cut there, maybe something lower down is masking it? Or maybe it needs a boost or some grit in that frequency range?

EDIT/clarification - the vocal performance is great, but the tone of the vocal doesn't have the shine and aggression it maybe should for the style of the tune.

Cheers, I do normally sing with a bit more aggression, but the melody here is a bit complex for me and I had to really think about it!
I think I could do with adding a touch more drive to the vocal - I'll try that today, if I think I've made any real progress I'll pop up a new mix.

[vomitHatSteve]

That 1st vocal line seems to fade in.

I caught that too. Was gonna comment that the vox were buried, but it starts to pop after that first line. That said, the vox are still a little mid-rangey compared to the rest of the instruments. The general mix is very crisp and clear, but the vocals sound like they're in a small box.

I like the two-part vox. That's a really solid set of hooks!

Maybe scale back the crashes a touch? There's a lot of them, and they take up a lot of space.

[JD01]

Cheers Steve. Not sure how I'm gonna sort that out. I'll have another punt at it tonight when I have some free time.

[WhiskeyJack]

Having a go at this on my monitors.

That blanket sound is gone pretty much entirely now. It was my earbuds. I hate those fucking things. I just need ot stop going to work and just hang out at home all day. HAHA!!! The solo and crashes don't seem as fight as i once heard either. But i do think your crashes do take up a lot of space. mostly the one on the left. And i can't tell if it's because they are so dry and sound unglued from everything else and that is how you like it or what? They just sort of are out there doing their own thing? if that makes any kind of sense. That may also be a personal thing with me. I don't like drums overly dry. When i mix crashes and overheads i think of them as highlights and accents to the rhythm of the song but they way they are mixed here they feel as if they are their own instrument. Which i guess they kind of are but i am not sure how to better explain my thoughts? Hopefully someone knows what i am trying to say.

On the whole it definitely doesn't need much work at all.

3rd listen: I hear the vocal fade thing right at the start. Needs attention. I don't so much mind how your EZD kick sounds. It is really good. Not a whole lot of obvious "hey this is EZD" traits. Good Job Man.

[musicturtle]

Chorus is just awesome man. Don't have much more to say.

[JD01]

OK, here's Mix 2 taking into account the tips above!

Better In The Evening Mix 2.mp3

[Greg_L]

OK, here's Mix 2 taking into account the tips above!

Better In The Evening Mix 2.mp3

This is probably one of your better vocal performances IMO. It's mostly in time and pretty much in tune. Nice job there. The vocal processing still leaves me pretty meh. I can't understand your lyrics. They're drowned in room or delay or whatever the hell you have all over them. You're burying your vocal improvements in mush. It sounds like you're singing in a bathroom, and if you're going to go through the trouble to write lyrics that are (probably) trying to say something, then make them clear enough to be understood. The mix is pretty good, though it's kind of got a blanket of resonance over it. There's a lot of non-specific low-mid range build up to me. I hear it on my monitors and in cans. It's like a cloud. But it's less so when the vocals aren't happening, so whatever you've done to the vocal track is not helping. There's some lows in the bass, guitars, and kick kind of building up to me. I also think it's time for you to invest in some better drum samples. I think you've taken bone stock cheapo ez drummer about as far as it can go. You've made good improvements everywhere else. But the drums sound really plasticy to me. I think they weren't so bad when the rest of your sounds weren't all that great, but with the improvements you've made the drums really stand out as the weak link now.

[JD01]

This is probably one of your better vocal performances IMO. It's mostly in time and pretty much in tune. Nice job there. The vocal processing still leaves me pretty meh. I can't understand your lyrics. They're drowned in room or delay or whatever the hell you have all over them. You're burying your vocal improvements in mush. It sounds like you're singing in a bathroom, and if you're going to go through the trouble to write lyrics that are (probably) trying to say something, then make them clear enough to be understood. The mix is pretty good, though it's kind of got a blanket of resonance over it. There's a lot of non-specific low-mid range build up to me. I hear it on my monitors and in cans. It's like a cloud. But it's less so when the vocals aren't happening, so whatever you've done to the vocal track is not helping.

Cheers, Greg. I'm not sure what exactly to do with the vocal. Its not the room though - I'm getting a really dry vocal now in that room and am having to add more verb to it than I was before. I'll explain what I'm doing and see if you can come up with any suggestions where I'm going wrong.

I've adjusted the lead vocal reverb send, to get it kind of where I want it. There's also a little bit of ReaDelay on the vocal - I use a bit of the "vocal fattener" preset and then back it off a little so its not so pronounced.
The vocal is also double tracked, the double version is mixed about 5 - 6 db lower than the lead (not got it in front of me right now). I add a touch more reverb to this... which I think might be a mistake, as adding more verb is normally something that you'd do with a backing vocal, not sure if its a good choice with a double tracked vocal. There's not any (or there shouldn't be) ReaDelay on the double track.

Harmonies are double tracked and panned either side with a bit more verb than the lead.

In the chorus, I use a similar technique but the lead vocal has a bit less reverb on it, but a little bit more "vocal fattener" from ReaDelay.

I know you don't like double tracking, but I have got the doubling pretty tight now - I find my voice sounds very thin when single tracked.

There's some lows in the bass, guitars, and kick kind of building up to me. I also think it's time for you to invest in some better drum samples. I think you've taken bone stock cheapo ez drummer about as far as it can go. You've made good improvements everywhere else. But the drums sound really plasticy to me. I think they weren't so bad when the rest of your sounds weren't all that great, but with the improvements you've made the drums really stand out as the weak link now.

The "non-specific low buildup" is probably what you were hearing when you listened to it in The Tone Thread - I can do a bit more work on that.

Regarding drums - I'm going to persevere until the end of the year, then switch to Superior Drummer.

You think the mix is pretty tidy regarding all the levels and pannings and stuff aside from the stuff noted above?

[Greg_L]

Cheers, Greg. I'm not sure what exactly to do with the vocal. Its not the room though - I'm getting a really dry vocal now in that room and am having to add more verb to it than I was before. I'll explain what I'm doing and see if you can come up with any suggestions where I'm going wrong.

I've adjusted the lead vocal reverb send, to get it kind of where I want it. There's also a little bit of ReaDelay on the vocal - I use a bit of the "vocal fattener" preset and then back it off a little so its not so pronounced.
The vocal is also double tracked, the double version is mixed about 5 - 6 db lower than the lead (not got it in front of me right now). I add a touch more reverb to this... which I think might be a mistake, as adding more verb is normally something that you'd do with a backing vocal, not sure if its a good choice with a double tracked vocal. There's not any (or there shouldn't be) ReaDelay on the double track.

Harmonies are double tracked and panned either side with a bit more verb than the lead.

In the chorus, I use a similar technique but the lead vocal has a bit less reverb on it, but a little bit more "vocal fattener" from ReaDelay.

I know you don't like double tracking, but I have got the doubling pretty tight now - I find my voice sounds very thin when single tracked.

I don't not like double tracking. What I don't like is poor double tracking. If you listen to my Street Fighting Man cover, that's triple tracked vocals. So it's not like I'm against it or anything. Anyway, you've gone from a reflective room to a drier room but the result is the same because you made it that way. I think you're so used to your old vocal sound that you can't escape it. Break that mindset. I think you're just doing too much to the vocals. Doubles, delays, "fatteners"...whatever the fuck that is. Too much. None of the rest of your mix is swimming in weird effects, so why the vocals? I know you love some Nirvana and True North. Listen to your boy Greg Graffin's vocals. They're clear and concise even when he's trying way too hard to cram way too many smart-guy lyrics into his vocal track. You can hear them clearly. Kurt Cobain was unintelligible because he sang that way, not because of the mix. So yeah, don't reverb the doubled track. It's not necessary. Backing vocals don't really neeed a different kind of treatment unless you're doing some gang vocal kind of thing. If you want your harmonies to mesh with the main vocal track, then treat them like the main vocals. One thing you didn't mention was compression. Your own smart use of compression is probably a better fattener than some weird plug in called "fattener". Use a quick clean delay for your "space" and use a very clean reverb. You can give the vocals space and depth without putting them into a box.

The "non-specific low buildup" is probably what you were hearing when you listened to it in The Tone Thread - I can do a bit more work on that.

Regarding drums - I'm going to persevere until the end of the year, then switch to Superior Drummer.

You think the mix is pretty tidy regarding all the levels and pannings and stuff aside from the stuff noted above?

I think the low end build up is all of it - kick, bass, and guitar woof. I wouldn't go hacking all of it though. See if you can find the actual offender. I suspect that the bass seeming mid scooped and the guitar's low end resonance are working together to make the low end kind of cloudy. The mix has a lot of "hype" to me. Like the clickety clacks in the drums and bass are hyped, and the low end is hyped.

[JD01]

I don't not like double tracking. What I don't like is poor double tracking. If you listen to my Street Fighting Man cover, that's triple tracked vocals. So it's not like I'm against it or anything. Anyway, you've gone from a reflective room to a drier room but the result is the same because you made it that way. I think you're so used to your old vocal sound that you can't escape it. Break that mindset. I think you're just doing too much to the vocals. Doubles, delays, "fatteners"...whatever the fuck that is. Too much. None of the rest of your mix is swimming in weird effects, so why the vocals? I know you love some Nirvana and True North. Listen to your boy Greg Graffin's vocals. They're clear and concise even when he's trying way too hard to cram way too many smart-guy lyrics into his vocal track. You can hear them clearly. Kurt Cobain was unintelligible because he sang that way, not because of the mix. So yeah, don't reverb the doubled track. It's not necessary. Backing vocals don't really neeed a different kind of treatment unless you're doing some gang vocal kind of thing. If you want your harmonies to mesh with the main vocal track, then treat them like the main vocals. One thing you didn't mention was compression. Your own smart use of compression is probably a better fattener than some weird plug in called "fattener". Use a quick clean delay for your "space" and use a very clean reverb. You can give the vocals space and depth without putting them into a box.

I think the low end build up is all of it - kick, bass, and guitar woof. I wouldn't go hacking all of it though. See if you can find the actual offender. I suspect that the bass seeming mid scooped and the guitar's low end resonance are working together to make the low end kind of cloudy. The mix has a lot of "hype" to me. Like the clickety clacks in the drums and bass are hyped, and the low end is hyped.

Vocal Fattener is just a preset in ReaDelay.
I don't actually do much with compression or EQ. I just add the Focusrite RED3 compressor twice, set at about -30 and 5:1, then about -20 and 10:1 (that's just from memory - I'm not actually sure) Followed by a little bit of extra saturation using the Camel Crusher which I really like - its just a simple saturation plug that works really well.

I don't think I'll ever be as clear as Greg Graffin, I generally don't enunciate that clearly when I'm just chatting normally... I'm don't sound drunk or anything but I do tend to mumble and slur a little - not Kurt Cobain levels of slurring, but you know what I mean.

I was listening quite carefully to some of the recent Greg Graffin vocals recently, they're just very compressed and the latest ones have quite a lot of saturation on them too - actually sounds quite similar to the Camel Crusher, although they probably have something expensive. He does speak very clearly though.

I brought my best cans away with me this week so I can spend some time trying things out on this in the evenings - won't get to work on it this weekend as I have to decorate - I'm getting loads of rooms, including the studio room carpeted, so I'll have to learn the room again after than anyway. That's simple enough though - I just there in my mixing position drinking beer and listening to True North and In Utero.

[vomitHatSteve]

Vocals are still a little mid-rangey and probably a little muddier, but the're closer to sounding like the same space as everything else.

I'm not sure the best choice here. The reverby version matches the mix better, but it isn't super clear.

[JD01]

Better In The Evening Mix 3.mp3

OK, Mix 3 - this will probably sound relatively similar for the most part. But I've taken the delay off all of the vocals aside from the lead vocal in the chorus (and I've reduced it there too). I've also reduced the reverb on the double track so its almost identical to the lead track.

Just listening to them line by line back to back - the difference is quite obvious actually.

OK, tried to work on the low level mush that Greg was talking about. Think I'm getting somewhere with it, although I think the bass guitar might be a touch loud now. Basically I've scooped a bit of kick drum, and a bit of bass guitar in different places where I thought it was having the best effect... then I boosted the bass guitar by a couple of db where I'd scooped the kick (330hz) as I thought it sounded a bit thin... Not sure it was the right thing to do. I've just undone that boost before posting! And narrowed the cut in the bass guitar at 185hz instead!

Didn't appear to be any problems with the guitar tone causing this.

Better In The Evening Mix 3a.mp3

[Armistice]

Sorry JD - I've been a bit distracted - I'll have a listen this evening, but it seems like you're well on the way anyway!

[JD01]

Sorry JD - I've been a bit distracted - I'll have a listen this evening, but it seems like you're well on the way anyway!

No worries mate, when you have time.

[Armistice]

OK - I had more issues because the latest shitty Win 10 upgrade stole my volume adjustment away from me and I was sitting at about 20%, so had to download another patch and it's sort of resolved it so I can at least hear! I'm only on laptop speakers BTW...

So my comments are all around the vocals - I'm sort of with Greg on this one - it sounds like it has important lyrics - you're delivering them in an almost Stipean End Of The World As We Know It style, but I'm struggling to get some of the lines. I'm getting some of them and then I miss a few, or get a bit of a line and then a whole line and then nothing in the next one - the cumulative effect is I'm listening really hard for the words and not able to sit back and enjoy the ride - and I still don't actually know what the song is about.

It's a good title - but when you sing "bet-ter" with the "enhanced" pronunciation it took me a few goes to understand that's what you were singing because that's not how you naturally pronounce "better" - so you're sort of fitting the syllables into the meter of the song but I'm not sure it works in that particular instance. When you sing it using normal pronunciation at the end of the song it sounds (cough ) much better...

Same thing with "pressure" in the first verse ("keep pres-sure on a fragile intellect") - as the word goes by I think "What was that?" and by the time I've worked it out the song's moved on and I've missed another word or two. I'm on my fourth run through now and I'm starting to get a lot of the words, but there's still quite a lot that I'm not - this wouldn't necessarily matter in a lot of songs, but as I said, it sounds like you're trying to make a point with the lyrics, but I'm not getting what that is, even now.

Try ducking your rhythm guitars a couple of dB when you're singing and bring them back up when you're not - you won't particularly notice it in the mix but it might make the vocals pop out a bit more. Maybe you're doing this already - I'm at the mercy of my horrible Beatz soundcard here.

To me, the best part of the song is the end, when you sing 4 times in a row "Better in the evening" with the normal pronunciation of "better"... it rocks at that point, really hard and you want to sing along

Again, I've only listened to Mix 3A - be interested to know what EQ you have on your voice - which is similar in range, if not tone, to mine.

Hope that's useful JD - 5 listens through and I reckon at most I've got 2/3s of the lyrics - and it's the sort of song where you want to know what's going on.

[JD01]

OK - I had more issues because the latest shitty Win 10 upgrade stole my volume adjustment away from me and I was sitting at about 20%, so had to download another patch and it's sort of resolved it so I can at least hear! I'm only on laptop speakers BTW...

So my comments are all around the vocals - I'm sort of with Greg on this one - it sounds like it has important lyrics - you're delivering them in an almost Stipean End Of The World As We Know It style, but I'm struggling to get some of the lines. I'm getting some of them and then I miss a few, or get a bit of a line and then a whole line and then nothing in the next one - the cumulative effect is I'm listening really hard for the words and not able to sit back and enjoy the ride - and I still don't actually know what the song is about.

It's a good title - but when you sing "bet-ter" with the "enhanced" pronunciation it took me a few goes to understand that's what you were singing because that's not how you naturally pronounce "better" - so you're sort of fitting the syllables into the meter of the song but I'm not sure it works in that particular instance. When you sing it using normal pronunciation at the end of the song it sounds (cough ) much better...

Same thing with "pressure" in the first verse ("keep pres-sure on a fragile intellect") - as the word goes by I think "What was that?" and by the time I've worked it out the song's moved on and I've missed another word or two. I'm on my fourth run through now and I'm starting to get a lot of the words, but there's still quite a lot that I'm not - this wouldn't necessarily matter in a lot of songs, but as I said, it sounds like you're trying to make a point with the lyrics, but I'm not getting what that is, even now.

Try ducking your rhythm guitars a couple of dB when you're singing and bring them back up when you're not - you won't particularly notice it in the mix but it might make the vocals pop out a bit more. Maybe you're doing this already - I'm at the mercy of my horrible Beatz soundcard here.

To me, the best part of the song is the end, when you sing 4 times in a row "Better in the evening" with the normal pronunciation of "better"... it rocks at that point, really hard and you want to sing along

Again, I've only listened to Mix 3A - be interested to know what EQ you have on your voice - which is similar in range, if not tone, to mine.

Hope that's useful JD - 5 listens through and I reckon at most I've got 2/3s of the lyrics - and it's the sort of song where you want to know what's going on.

Cheers Armistice. Have you listened to much early Manic Street Preachers (Holy Bible era)? The lyrics weren't written by the singer and weren't written with a song or melody in mind so there's some really weird cases of fitting syllables to rhythm there... given that I do write them with the song in mind I don't suppose I have that excuse, maybe its just something that's rubbed off on me.

I do think of the vocal melody prior to the lyrics and end up adjusting lyrics and lines to get them to fit my melody. One of the things you mentioned "Keep Pres-sure on a Fragile Intellect" I could have just changed that to "Keep pressure on this fragile intellect" which would have given me an extra syllable so I could have removed the gap from the middle of the word pressure... oh well, didn't think of that!

The song is about anhedonia (perceived lack of interest in pleasure) and emotional blunting (also known as reduced affect display) which doesn't mean a lack of emotion, but more that they just don't get expressed outwardly.