One Guitar Track - Multiple Mics ?

[WhiskeyJack]

Rebels,

Headed into some uncharted territory here for me. I typically track my amp with one mic then EQ the heck out of it and fill in the blanks with a DI sim track of the same performance buried deep in the mix, barely audiable but just to fill in and around where needed. Today i tracked the cab with three mics and a safety DI just in case. The results are pretty cool so far without any EQ'ing and i am pleased. much more meat and bulk but definitely need some work. I think whats happening is some of that Orange CAB flavor is stacking up among a few other freq's. To cure this, if you guys were me, would you

A: EQ each individual track, blend, then mix to the bus,

or

B: just leave the individual tracks alone, find a blend that works nice and then just EQ the folder track?

[Armistice]

B - but only once I've got the other instrumentation in place.

You can always go and do A if it doesn't work, but EQ-ing 4 tracks of the same guitar is too much work for my liking - especially if you've got nuffin' else recorded yet.

Option C - pic your favourite mic/speaker/mic position and live dangerously and re-record it once and once only.

[WhiskeyJack]

Option C - pic your favourite mic/speaker/mic position and live dangerously and re-record it once and once only.

I might have to sadly. After taking a break and listening back it seems my lefty-upside-downy got the best of me on a few spots and i hit a friggin open b string while slamming out A# power chord, just long enough to be painfully fucking noticeable and upset the balance of the friggin song. Might be able to kick the missus and dogs out tomorrow afternoon real quick to do it but hard to say.

Thanks Armi.

I don't think i could go back to a 1 mic thing thing though. For starters i am not that good and secondly this AD30 has some high end shenanigans that a two mic set up kills and that really makes shan a happy boy. I doubt i will ever go back.

[Greg_L]

I pretty much always track guitars with multiple mics. I juggle the mic blends to brighten/darken the sound. Anything that requires less EQ, the better IMO.

If I do EQ, I usually only do it to the track that needs it.

So I'd say option A if you have to, but B is better if you can get away with it.

[JD01]

Shan, this sounds enormously complicated.

Can't you just try and get a sound you like with one mic and work out from there?

[Greg_L]

I think the idea is to use one mic placement that's bright, and one that's darker. That becomes your EQ.

If you get them in phase, then the natural phase cancellation that occurs is pleasant and it naturally gets rid of frequencies you don't typically want. I can often get away with no EQ at all and I "EQ" just by adjusting the blend between bright mic and dark mic.

And of course if you need further EQ, you can do that too. But hopefully not much.

[WhiskeyJack]

Shan, this sounds enormously complicated.

Can't you just try and get a sound you like with one mic and work out from there?

Depends on how you look at it maybe? I am not a huge fan (personally for me) of double (or more) tracking. Most folks don't do it for bass or drums so why do it for guitars? Because it is a standard practice? Meh. Play it once and capture it as best you can and call it. Again, for me, it sort of forces me to try and play as best as i possibly can. I will be the first to admit i am not a gifted guitarist and i don't make enough time to practice stuff so nailing 2 to 3 performances of the same thing over over plus punches and overdubbing two to three times per left / right channel to fix the flubs, given the windows of opportunity i get to crank my amp isn't really time effective and is over complicated to me. My contributions here should be a testament to my time management lol. Again, this is simply my opinion, I for sure have heard the results of really really good double tracking. Especially here from you guys. Then i hear my results. I won't go into why other than that i am probably the worlds shittiest guitar player and i am consistently inconsistent which always seems to yield a phasey chorusy kind of guitar sound i really don't like for my stuff. I would much rather have one performance with alot of life in it. Enter this multiple mic thing.

In addition to greg's comments in the above post it really makes light work of EQing out some of the shit i don't like about what i get out of this AD30's individual tracks and it also adds in some meat and chunk not unlike a good double track. not the same, but much better than how i was doing it. I am smitten with this technique and i plan to only get better at it.

[mention]Greg_L[/mention] I think the issue i am running into is possibly just having the third mic on there? When i add it into the mix things get good but again it just sort of sounds that in addition to all the good stuff piling up the bad is too. When i take a third mic out it looses a little bit of balls but it also looses that bit of nasal milk crate kind of sound. And it doesn't seem to be any mic in particular it just seems like throwing a third in. the 544 and 57 sound great together. try and throw in some of the e906 and it gets weird. same goes for if i get the 544 and e906 paired up and start to blend in some 57. Same results. I know for sure it isn't a phase thing i correct all that before i start monitoring back. I am taking a break from it for most of today but i'll jump back into it later this evening and see what my ears hear.

Thanks everyone.

[Armistice]

What Greg said Shan. I only ever used two mics on anything - making sure they had different "flavours", and then blended them. Electric / acoustic - doesn't matter. Not 3 and a DI track - t hat's getting a bit complicated - too many balls in the air for me. But if you want to, that's fine, but I'd build up, not down.

Master the art of getting a good sound with each different single mic first.

Then your two favourite mics - and the positioning may change because you're no longer using a single mic sound, you know you're going to blend and you want a bit of contrast, but work out how to get your best two mic sound, and then, if you really need to, the best three mic sound, and again, the positions might change for the same reason.

i'm betting you'll stop at two - I'm sensing you've gone from one to three without stopping in the middle and really working on what the best way is to get two mics/positions that will both be used in the mix.

[Greg_L]

Adding a DI/sim into mic'd tracks is a recipe for trouble. The phase will never be right unless you manually slide things around. The signal entering the DAW via DI and the signal going through a cable, amp, cab, air space, mics, and even more cable arrives at different times. Either is fine on it's own, but blending sim and mic'd tracks is tough.

Also, the third mic is probably overkill. If you wanna use a third mic, I think using that third as a room mic would probably be better than three close mics.

[Farview]

I always double mic a guitar cab. (57 and 421) I mix the two to taste with no EQ, then lay down another performance with the two mics.

Then I pan everything the way I want and send it to a bus. I EQ the bus. Mostly I tend to add air and EQ some of the low end to fit with the bass. I get everything else right (or pretty close) with mic placement and dialing in the amp.

[Armistice]

Or, just ignore us and do whatever you want...

LoudGuitar_03_mikedorangecab-fp7VzxWTSRqGBA3As.Sbsw4jsCWzkQYY.jpg

[Tadpui]

I always double mic a guitar cab. (57 and 421) I mix the two to taste with no EQ, then lay down another performance with the two mics.

That's the only multi-mic combo that I've tried where I listened back and thought "wow!"

I would love to have a room where I could put up a distant mic and get a nice roomy tone to blend in. But my rooms have all been too small to be of any use in that way.

Since I just do plain old rock guitar, a single SM57 does the trick for me. Although I've been listening back to the guitars that I recorded in my old studio and they all sound kinda dead, lacking highs. Not sure if that's just my tastes in the live sound in the room, or my mic choice or mic position. I'm looking forward to finally being able to mic up a cab again in the coming weeks though!

[Lt. Bob]

I'm not seeing where it's that complicated to use multiple mics in these DAW systems where you have unlimited tracks.
You're still only doing one take ..... stick a buncha mics up and mix to taste .... seems simple enough to moi

[WhiskeyJack]

What Greg said Shan. I only ever used two mics on anything - making sure they had different "flavours", and then blended them. Electric / acoustic - doesn't matter. Not 3 and a DI track - t hat's getting a bit complicated - too many balls in the air for me. But if you want to, that's fine, but I'd build up, not down.

Master the art of getting a good sound with each different single mic first.

Then your two favourite mics - and the positioning may change because you're no longer using a single mic sound, you know you're going to blend and you want a bit of contrast, but work out how to get your best two mic sound, and then, if you really need to, the best three mic sound, and again, the positions might change for the same reason.

i'm betting you'll stop at two - I'm sensing you've gone from one to three without stopping in the middle and really working on what the best way is to get two mics/positions that will both be used in the mix.

Thanks Armi all makes perfect sense there is a lot going on for sure with four tracks total to sort through. See my note about the DI tracks below though.

Yes, you sensed correctly. I did a bit of trial and error with two mics to see what i could do and that is about it, I just jumped into a song with three mics making the assumption it was just going to be a better set up. After spending some time trying to bury the rouge b string flubs i am likely going to have to re-track again so i will just go back to the drawing board. Lord knows it could be way better anyways. A little bummed out. I had really hoped to have everything to a point where i can spend this week mixing the song down and have it up but i guess i'll wait some more. All is not lost i guess. my brother heard the song i chose to cover for the challenge and wants to be part of it so he is excited to play something again. So if there were a silver lining to exceeding my two week deadline by 4 weeks i guess that is it lol.

FYI [mention]Greg_L[/mention] and [mention]Armistice[/mention] The DI's tracks aren't even in the equation at all yet and likely won't be. Just a bad habit of recording a safety track. I like to have it when i do 'real big boy amp' tracking. not sure why? I just do. Maybe years of using sims is a security blanket for me? Who knows.

Then I pan everything the way I want and send it to a bus.

I am really glad you mentioned this FV as it was something i was monkeying around with last night! So when you say pan do you mean the usual left and right performances? or do you mean for the left channel performance for instance, you's pan your 57 off to 100% left and your 421 at like 80% left and then send to the bus for a bit of a spitshine?

I'm not seeing where it's that complicated to use multiple mics in these DAW systems where you have unlimited tracks.
You're still only doing one take ..... stick a buncha mics up and mix to taste .... seems simple enough to moi

I found it to be anything but complicated and never say never but, highly doubt i will ever go back to a one mic set up again. I am just trying to make sense of why a third mic is creating the issue i am hearing. I think i am ultimately going to end up retracking so i'll go back to two mics and perfect that before throwing a third in. I think i just got a tone boner and jumped the shark a bit.

All signs are pointing to sending all raw tracks to my L & R guitar bus and spitshining there if it needs it.


Thanks my dudes.

[WhiskeyJack]

Or, just ignore us and do whatever you want...

LoudGuitar_03_mikedorangecab-fp7VzxWTSRqGBA3As.Sbsw4jsCWzkQYY.jpg

I could if had another two days of time to myself alone in the house like i just had. I found a box of old dynamic mic's from a very old band i was in some old Samson something or others. I technically could? Now that i think about it I also have that damaged cheapy Apex large diaphragm condenser that might be perfect for loud cabs now! Trying to track an acoustic with it i need to dime the preamp and it tracks the same as my spark with the preamp on 3. Anything is possible lol. Maybe having that box of stuff fall on it attenuated it for me?


Realistically though i am just going to go back and do two mics and go from there. I think that's plenty.

[vomitHatSteve]

I'm not seeing where it's that complicated to use multiple mics in these DAW systems where you have unlimited tracks.
You're still only doing one take ..... stick a buncha mics up and mix to taste .... seems simple enough to moi

Inputs will still be a limiting factor unless you want to do a lot of re-amping.

But yeah, I vote option B. Get a bunch of tracks and tweak volumes.

On the other hand, I also run my bass through 3 separate amps these days, and that's probably not the most coherent solution!

[WhiskeyJack]

I also run my bass through 3 separate amps these days, and that's probably not the most coherent solution!

For one performance? or are you layering takes on takes?

Nevermind i literally just read the answer.

[Farview]

Then I pan everything the way I want and send it to a bus.

I am really glad you mentioned this FV as it was something i was monkeying around with last night! So when you say pan do you mean the usual left and right performances? or do you mean for the left channel performance for instance, you's pan your 57 off to 100% left and your 421 at like 80% left and then send to the bus for a bit of a spitshine?

I think of the two mics together as one sound, so they are panned together as one thing. I get my sense of space from multiple takes instead of multiple mics.

When I have two performances from different guitars/amps/performers, I will EQ those performances at the track level to make sure both performances have the same weight, then send them to a bus and EQ the guitars as a whole to fit the song.

[Lt. Bob]

I am just trying to make sense of why a third mic is creating the issue i am hearing.

It's gonna be a phase thing .....for conceptual purposes, phasing issues are essentially interference waves ...... when you have 2 mics you have a basic situation where the two waves interfere with each other and that's it ..... but with a third mic you now have mic1 interfering with mic 2 but also interfering with mic 3 which is also interacting with both the other two mics PLUS a third mic also interacting with both the others.

If you think of using two mics and using the phase cancellations almost as EQ's ..... then with 3 mics now you have multiple EQs dealing with the same freqs ..... get's a little too much EQ boosting and cutting going on all at once.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you get a sound you like ..... ultimately that's all that matters ..... but with 3 or more mics the phasing issues start to get crazy

[Greg_L]

I think of the two mics together as one sound, so they are panned together as one thing. I get my sense of space from multiple takes instead of multiple mics.

Yes, this ^^^^^

When I have two performances from different guitars/amps/performers, I will EQ those performances at the track level to make sure both performances have the same weight, then send them to a bus and EQ the guitars as a whole to fit the song.

And yes this ^^^^

It's gonna be a phase thing .....for conceptual purposes, phasing issues are essentially interference waves ...... when you have 2 mics you have a basic situation where the two waves interfere with each other and that's it ..... but with a third mic you now have mic1 interfering with mic 2 but also interfering with mic 3 which is also interacting with both the other two mics PLUS a third mic also interacting with both the others.

If you think of using two mics and using the phase cancellations almost as EQ's ..... then with 3 mics now you have multiple EQs dealing with the same freqs ..... get's a little too much EQ boosting and cutting going on all at once.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you get a sound you like ..... ultimately that's all that matters ..... but with 3 or more mics the phasing issues start to get crazy

And yes to all that ^^^^^