Setting up reverbs

[JD01]

To the best of my knowledge I have yet to use any modal theory.

Yeah, you have! You got your charts out work out the key for your song to smash out a bit of lead.

[Greg_L]

Yeah, you have! You got your charts out work out the key for your song to smash out a bit of lead.

Which one? If I did that I forgot it already!

[JD01]

Yeah, you have! You got your charts out work out the key for your song to smash out a bit of lead.

Which one? If I did that I forgot it already!

Can't remember - I just remember you telling me that you had a sequence of chords, lined them up on the chart and it came out in a key that you didn't expect but you just played that major scale and it worked! Magic!

[Greg_L]

Can't remember - I just remember you telling me that you had a sequence of chords, lined them up on the chart and it came out in a key that you didn't expect but you just played that major scale and it worked! Magic!

Oh yeah, the relative major/minor thing.

I do remember that. It was funny, I'd already know that just by doing it, but I didn't know how or why it was that way or that I was doing it by default without knowing how or why I was doing it.

That's a terrible sentence.

My point is yeah, modes and shit. I can't use them.

[jonny deep]

How do you make things sound further & closer with reverb - is it simply a case of how much you send to the reverb channel, or is there more to be done with pre-reflections (or whatever that's called) to get a layered effect.

(I'm not sure I'm describing this well - I mean how do you get drums at the back, guitars in the middle & vocals at the front, for example.)

[JD01]

How do you make things sound further & closer with reverb - is it simply a case of how much you send to the reverb channel, or is there more to be done with pre-reflections (or whatever that's called) to get a layered effect.

(I'm not sure I'm describing this well - I mean how do you get drums at the back, guitars in the middle & vocals at the front, for example.)

My idea, probably very simplistically is more reverb for the things that are furthest back.

I give drums the most. My main rhythm guitars the least and get everything else to sit in between.

[Greg_L]

How do you make things sound further & closer with reverb - is it simply a case of how much you send to the reverb channel, or is there more to be done with pre-reflections (or whatever that's called) to get a layered effect.

(I'm not sure I'm describing this well - I mean how do you get drums at the back, guitars in the middle & vocals at the front, for example.)

Think it like this. Use your imagination:

You have a very large empty space. Say, and airplane hangar. In this empty hangar you have a combo amp. Now, put the amp at the very back of the hangar and position yourself near the front. What will you hear? You will hear the amp sound bouncing around the hangar. You will hear the room. It will be the amp in a huge washy echo giant room reverb sound. There will be little to no separation between the amp's natural clear sound and the room's effect on it. There is no delay between the the amp and the room blending the sound together.

Now, in that same room, get close to the amp. Bring it to you, or you go to it, either way, you're face to face with the amp, but you're still in that giant space. Now what do you hear? You hear the amp much more clearly, and then you get hit with the wash of reverb from the giant room. There is now some delay between the amp's natural sound and the room's effect.

The second scenario is how pre-delay works, and why it's so important to using reverb. The time between the clean sound and the reverb effect is pre-delay, and it's what moves a sound forwards and backwards in a mix.

No pre-delay...the sound seems far away because the reverb effect is immediate.

Some pre-delay delays the onset of the effect, the clean sound is more prominent, and it makes the sound seem closer.

[JD01]

Cheers, Greg. I still haven't got to the bottom of Pre-Delay with Reaverb though.

[rammer24]

I used to create pre-delay by sending my reverb to a delay. Put the delay "Feedback" to zero (or one, if you don't have a choice) so that it doesn't cause multiple echos. Then, set your delay time to however many milliseconds you want (usually very short, like 20-50ms), and Bob's your uncle. Instant pre-delay.

[jonny deep]

Cool, thanks for the description. So, to have, say, 3 layers of distance, you might use 3 reverb instances with different pre-delay settings?

[rammer24]

I used to create pre-delay by sending my reverb to a delay. Put the delay "Feedback" to zero (or one, if you don't have a choice) so that it doesn't cause multiple echos. Then, set your delay time to however many milliseconds you want (usually very short, like 20-50ms), and Bob's your uncle. Instant pre-delay.

I might actually have it backwards. It's been too long. Maybe I sent the delay to a reverb. Anyway, try both. Maybe they both work.

[Greg_L]

Cool, thanks for the description. So, to have, say, 3 layers of distance, you might use 3 reverb instances with different pre-delay settings?

Yup. You can use the same reverb with three different pre-delays, or just three different reverbs. There is no best or right way. As long as you keep in mind how the pre-delay idea and setting works, you can do it however you want.

[Greg_L]

I might actually have it backwards. It's been too long. Maybe I sent the delay to a reverb. Anyway, try both. Maybe they both work.

I think it's this. Send the delay to a reverb. A reverb into a delay will be a mess, but it could sound cool in certain instances.

[jonny deep]

Cool, thanks for the description. So, to have, say, 3 layers of distance, you might use 3 reverb instances with different pre-delay settings?

Yup. You can use the same reverb with three different pre-delays, or just three different reverbs. There is no best or right way. As long as you keep in mind how the pre-delay idea and setting works, you can do it however you want.

Awesome, thanks! This is the thing I never really got to grips with. I was working on the assumption that more send to reverb = more distance from listener, but that never really worked out.

[rammer24]

I think it's this. Send the delay to a reverb. A reverb into a delay will be a mess, but it could sound cool in certain instances.

Yeah, I think you're right. Makes more sense now that I think about it. The delay...um...delays the signal going into the reverb. That makes sense.

[Greg_L]

Awesome, thanks! This is the thing I never really got to grips with. I was working on the assumption that more send to reverb = more distance from listener, but that never really worked out.

More reverb is more distance from listener if the pre-delay is very short. But lengthen the pre-delay and send more reverb and you get the signal closer to your face in a larger space behind it.

That goddamn pre-delay is important.

Pre-delay is how close or far the sound source is.
Then the type and amount of reverb will dictate how big the space is or how reactive it is to that close or far sound source.

[Greg_L]

This should be moved to Mixing and Mastering!

TK421, why aren't you at your post? TK421, do you copy?

[rammer24]

MERGE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JD01]

Awesome, thanks! This is the thing I never really got to grips with. I was working on the assumption that more send to reverb = more distance from listener, but that never really worked out.

More reverb is more distance from listener if the pre-delay is very short. But lengthen the pre-delay and send more reverb and you get the signal closer to your face in a larger space behind it.

That goddamn pre-delay is important.

Pre-delay is how close or far the sound source is.
Then the type and amount of reverb will dictate how big the space is or how reactive it is to that close or far sound source.

Ah, so... would I set my reverbs up with the same amount of reverb on everything - say -23db, but then bring the guitars and vocals forward with a bit of pre-delay?

[rammer24]

Ah, so... would I set my reverbs up with the same amount of reverb on everything - say -23db, but then bring the guitars and vocals forward with a bit of pre-delay?

You can, but probably not. This is a classic case of "It depends". You have to decide how much reverb you want on each instrument. I never have as much reverb on guitars as I do on my drums, for example. That's if I even put reverb on guitar at all.