Possibly stupid intonation question.

[rammer24]

Some of you know that I've had a bit of a problem with the tuning on my EPI SG. I can tune it so that the open strings are in tune, and it's in tune at the 12th fret. But it's a little out if playing from the 1st to the 5th fret. Like, an open D chord can sound horrendous, but a D bar chord on the 10th fret is fine.

So, I was about to start trying to set it up myself.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM: When I put the guitar down on my desk to to start screwing with the little screws on the bridge, the guitar goes flat about a semi-tone since it's sitting on its' back with something under the headstock, pushing the neck slightly forward. If I tune it to the tuner that way, I pick it up and the whole thing goes sharp because I tuned it while the neck had tension on the headstock, like someone trying to bend the neck forward. What's the solution to this?

[Greg_L]

Set it in your playing position - on it's side. I set all of mine sitting on my lap as if I'm playing it.

[rammer24]

Set it in your playing position - on it's side. I set all of mine sitting on my lap as if I'm playing it.

Ok great. I thought there was a reason every video I saw had it laying down on its' back, like this guy.
https://youtu.be/vBuYGXgPfsE

[Greg_L]

Set it in your playing position - on it's side. I set all of mine sitting on my lap as if I'm playing it.

Ok great. I thought there was a reason every video I saw had it laying down on its' back, like this guy.
https://youtu.be/vBuYGXgPfsE

You can check neck relief and action and stuff like that with the guitar on it's back, but fine things like tuning/intonation are better done with the guitar in it's playing position. Like you've noticed, an SG neck is pretty sensitive to pressure. If you wanna do it on it's back, you're gonna need to support the neck better than only at the headstock.

[rammer24]

Right. Makes sense. I'll try it in my playing position now that I know I can. It just loooked so "Pro shop" having on its' back that I thought there was a reason for it. Thanx man.

[Greg_L]

Right good luck! It's not hard. If you're patient and have a good tuner that thing will sing in tune everywhere on the neck.

[ocnor]

Yep! Holding the guitar in the playing position is how I adjust the intonation.

[ido1957]

If it makes you feel any better, I had the same D chord issue on my LPC so it's not your guitar - I think it's gibson in general.
Since I had the nut looked at (giving the tech as much detail as I could garner from the internets), the problem is gone.
Now I don't know what else he may have tweaked so it may not just be the nut - I did mention fret level at the 2nd and 3rd needing attention and do whatever needed to the truss rod etc etc etc.

One really weird thing though which comes up once in a while, while recording the guitar sounds out of tune in my phones. But when I mix it everything sounds in tune.
That I cannot explain.....

I never had either of these issues with my Kramer or Strat, so it's a bit of a piss off....but when the LPC sounds good it sounds great so I'm keeping it.

[rammer24]

Since I had the nut looked at..... the problem is gone.

I look at my nuts all the time. It hasn't helped my guitar tone one bit.

One really weird thing though which comes up once in a while, while recording the guitar sounds out of tune in my phones. But when I mix it everything sounds in tune.

YES! Every time I put a guitar track down over the bass track, it always sounds out of tune, warbly, etc....at first. Then, I wake up the next day, listen and all is good. That is weird.

[ido1957]

Ahhh - interesting thought just came to mind... I think somebody at HR said that bass will affect a singer's pitch. And...if I'm not mistaken, the tracks I thought were OOT were done after Mike had laid down the bass tracks. Hmmm.....

[rammer24]

Ahhh - interesting thought just came to mind... I think somebody at HR said that bass will affect a singer's pitch. And...if I'm not mistaken, the tracks I thought were OOT were done after Mike had laid down the bass tracks. Hmmm.....

Yeah, that's a separate issue for me. Depending on how tired my ears are I can have a lot of trouble distinguishing the low note of a bass. An E can easily sound like an F or even F#. I end up not being able to hear the root and I'm hearing all kinds of hormonics. When I was gigging, by the third set, when my ears were fatigued, I'd have trouble singing not because of my voice, but because I couldn't find the key. There were times when I literally sang a whole song a semi-tone sharp. If you solo'd me, I'd be totally in tune with myself. But I was a semi-tone up from the band. Weird wild stuff.

[Armistice]

hormonics

[Greg_L]

lol

[rammer24]

Holy shit. I always double check my posts, and almost never mis-spell a word without going back and correcting it. I can't believe I missed that one. But I kind of like it.

[Lt. Bob]

RE: ido1957's post

If the nut is too high then the first 3-5 frets will play sharp because the distance you push down on the strings to get them to the fretboard bends the string out of tune.
The string clearance over the first fret should be about the same or slightly higher than the string clearance over the 2nd fret if you finger the 1st fret (essentially making the 1st fret take the place of the nut ) and so on.
Very often the nut is cut too high ..... I'd just about bet money that the tech deepend the slots on the nut.

[Roman]

Set it in your playing position - on it's side. I set all of mine sitting on my lap as if I'm playing it.

What he said.

Most of the time this is the best way. And SGs are particularly fragile and flexible due ti the neck joint construction.

Also since every player has his own touch, every player should learn to do it themselves.

[rammer24]

Thanx for the advice, guys. I'll be doing it the way you guys recommended.

I probably should have mentioned that this is a rightie guitar that was switched to a lefty. They changed the nut and whatever else they had to do. But I remember when the guy gave it to me, he said something like "I think you'll be happy with it, but it might not be 100%. I did the best I could" kind of thing. So, like Lt. Bob said, it might have something to do with the nut.

[miroslav]

I also do my intonation with the guitar strapped and around my neck.
If I need to rest it a bit, I just raise my leg on a chair...but it's best to do it with the guitar in the normal hanging position if you want to have it be as true as possible when you play.

Also...I do intonation a little differently from what's become sorta the standard approach of using the 12th fret and harmonics.
I just set it with the string pressed at the 5th fret and then matched against the string pressed at the 17th....no harmonics or open strings.
The goal is to get it set so it's either perfect at those two positions...or if you can't, then you set both so there is an equal offset...like say, a couple of ticks sharp at one position and a couple of ticks flat at the other...that way, rather than having it perfect at the like the 5th fret and way off at the 17th...you find a mid-point where they are an equal amount sharp VS flat.
This approach seems to give the best balanced tune across the whole neck...especially if you play mostly pressed strings and barre chords.
If you are into a lot of open chords in the first 3 frets...then you need to do a different approach. about the only open chord I ever play is the E chord...and I can make it work.

[Lt. Bob]

it kinda depends on the neck.
An SG neck of mahogany is pretty flexible so you'd want to do that in playing position although you could simply put a pad under the nexk to keep it from dropping.
But a maple neck's not gonna bend that much.

As for thing's going sharp in the first 5 frets , which was part of the original question, that's not gonna be adjusted by intonating the bridge IMO.
There's no way for bridge adjustments to only target the first few frets and, in fact, the effect of adjusting the bridge will always increase as you go further up the next.
IMO the only possibilities are either misplaced frets (unlikely in todays world of computerized machines although it's possible ) or a nut that's not slotted deep enough.

[Roman]

Thanx for the advice, guys. I'll be doing it the way you guys recommended.

I probably should have mentioned that this is a rightie guitar that was switched to a lefty. They changed the nut and whatever else they had to do. But I remember when the guy gave it to me, he said something like "I think you'll be happy with it, but it might not be 100%. I did the best I could" kind of thing. So, like Lt. Bob said, it might have something to do with the nut.

Oh shit! That's kind of crucial information.

Did the bridge get relocated? Intonation is gonna be wonkers if not. In some cases depending on the bridge, there may be enough saddle travel to make it work, but usually the studs need to be pulled, filled and relocated into 'lefty' position.

Unless if you keep it strung up as a righty and play it backwards. Then, just intonate as normal.

If notes are going sharp closer to the nut, that's simply the nut height is too much.

Youll be 'stretching' the string slightly as you push down to make fret contact.

An easy rule of thumb for nut height is this;

Fret at the first fret. Take note of the distance between the string and the second fret. That measurement should be your nut height.

Some guitars had a "zero fret" in place of the nut, and the purpose of the nut was only to keep the strings aligned.