New Honey Hunters - Listen to the Timber

[Armistice]

... and the hits keep coming.

I'm pumping them out at the moment because I six songs all recorded bar the vocals - this is number 4. I'll slow down once I get to the end of that batch.

This is one I had a set of lyrics for and made some vague attempts on and then decided that the lyrics were just me trying to be deep about not much at all, so I binned them, then wrote new ones based on something which came to my attention. Sang them, then decided the verses just weren't working, so binned the verses, kept the harmonies and chorus and re-sang the verses. Then at the very end, decided I needed more in the bridge, so added a harmony/high answer vocal and strings...

As usual I'm at the "can't listen to it anymore" stage and am lacking objectivity, so need additional ears... Go to it guys and gal.

Incidentally I've been experimenting in some of these songs of using drum patterns created by real drummers, rather than programming them myself. This is one of those songs. Obviously I tinker but mainly it's a real person playing them and it's been converted to MIDI. So blame Anonymous Drummer if you don't like them. (@Bubba I'm looking at you...)

The lyrics will be completely meaningless without context which I'll stick below, for the lyrically curious.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mix 1


DELETED


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mix 2

Various tweaks as discussed in the thread...


DELETED


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mix 3

More twerking - different compressor on bass which was probably a touch loud anyway. Crisped up the kick a bit. Perhaps this washing thing was a combo of bass too loud, kick too soft and not defined enough. I thought it might be the backing vocals, but not. Interestingly, as I said, there is no difference between the kick / bass on the first chorus and the second and third - yet this wasn't an issue in the first chorus, only the second (and possibly third) - so the difference in the song is the increase in the lower backing vocals from two voices to four at that point - perhaps it was that, after all.

DELETED



_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



What it all means:

So 5.30 to 6.30 on Sunday afternoons has become known around the house as "Hitler Hour" because on TV station SBS you can just guarantee there will be one of a seemingly endless stream of WW1/2 documentaries. They're not all about Adolf but lots are... anyway, we were watching one which wasn't - it was about what happened (apparently - and the song is a song, not a documentary, so who knows how accurate I am) in England in the mid-40s was that they not only needed young men for the war effort but also to mine coal to make stuff for the war and keep the lights on. So from a particular point in time, whilst there was a draft/conscription, one in ten of the men called up were sent down to mine coal, instead of going to war.

Each week the government randomly chose a number - 0 to 9, and the people whose draft notice ended in that number, were assigned to mining. So that explains the chorus. The song's title comes from the notion that in said mines, they didn't have metal reinforcing the shafts as you'd expect, because iron was required for the war effort, so it was all done with timber, and if you listened to it creaking etc. it would give you a pretty good idea of when a shaft was in trouble - so there's the first verse. Second verse is about how this plan wasn't widely known in the areas where the mines were and so the miners were treated with great suspicion by the locals, who assumed they were conscientious objectors (conchies) or conscription cheats and so they'd get abused in the town. Third verse is that they weren't recognised as part of the war effort by the government, until some 50 years on, the Queen said something. And then another 12 years later, Tony Blair finally gave them some recognition - but of course they were all old men by then. The bridge is about that, well it mightn't be what you want, but at least you won't get blown to bits by Gerry in the mines so it's not all bad.

They were called Bevin Boys after the government minister in charge at the time, if you want to read about it.

[rayc]

Your version of Scorn of the Women.
An excellent alternative view/aspect/take.
Cool spidery song.
The snare might be a little loud on those fills.
I really like the sounds and the narrative.
They also serve who only stand and wait/each according to their means.
Milton might apply...
" When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my Soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
“Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
I fondly ask. But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, “God doth not need
Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is Kingly: thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o’er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait.”

[JD01]

Only listening on crap headphones. So I'll just say, its a good song and definitely an Armistice song.

Everything sounds about right level/mix wise for now.

[Bubba]

Yes, this is good. The real drum grooves that you are using are a really good shout. I think the grooves and the fills are no less complex and busy than an Armistice-programmed groove, but they have a lightness of touch in the ghost notes and subtle dynamics within the snare rolls that are tricky to programme convincingly. I think studying these will help you programme much better in the future. I have no bones to pick just now, everything sounds pretty good.

Maybe the kick is slightly wooly/woofy?

[Armistice]

Yes, this is good. The real drum grooves that you are using are a really good shout. I think the grooves and the fills are no less complex and busy than an Armistice-programmed groove, but they have a lightness of touch in the ghost notes and subtle dynamics within the snare rolls that are tricky to programme convincingly. I think studying these will help you programme much better in the future. I have no bones to pick just now, everything sounds pretty good.

Maybe the kick is slightly wooly/woofy?

Well is it woolly or woofy? These things make a difference... I'll check the envelope on it, I have an idea I rolled it back towards the less-attack direction a little just at the end. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

I'll be having a look at the MIDI for these patterns in more detail. Doing realistic rolls in particular is very hard from scratch. I didn't realise that all this time, the information was there for me to plunder. Could be useful for when we get onto the first HH album remix thing...

Only listening on crap headphones. So I'll just say, its a good song and definitely an Armistice song.

Everything sounds about right level/mix wise for now.

Cheers, thanks - let me know if you hear anything when you get onto speakers.

Your version of Scorn of the Women.
An excellent alternative view/aspect/take.
Cool spidery song.
The snare might be a little loud on those fills.
I really like the sounds and the narrative.
They also serve who only stand and wait/each according to their means.
Milton might apply...
" When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my Soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
“Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
I fondly ask. But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, “God doth not need
Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is Kingly: thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o’er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait.”

Thanks ray - yes, I hadn't though of SOTW but not dissimilar. Will check the snare - it was sitting as it should on the basic hit but I didn't check it during the rolls, I'll admit, where it may get a little hotter than intended.

[Bubba]

Well is it woolly or woofy

If pressed, I would have to say it's woofly

[Armistice]

Well is it woolly or woofy

If pressed, I would have to say it's woofly

I'm glad we've had this chat to clear this matter up.

[Tadpui]

Things sounded very good on my system. There are a couple of little drum fill/incidentals that sound a bit out of place or mechanical, but otherwise the drums sound very nice. Bass sounds balanced to me. Maybe a bit more mids on the bass would help place it in the mix for people without subs or full range speakers. The electric guitar playing in the highest register could come up just a smidge. I like the 3 guitar approach (I'm assuming it's 3 guitars overlapping). I always like your vocals. They remind me of Scott Walker meets Lou Reed meets Bowie or something. I dunno, it's hard to place, but I like it.

[Armistice]

Things sounded very good on my system. There are a couple of little drum fill/incidentals that sound a bit out of place or mechanical, but otherwise the drums sound very nice. Bass sounds balanced to me. Maybe a bit more mids on the bass would help place it in the mix for people without subs or full range speakers. The electric guitar playing in the highest register could come up just a smidge. I like the 3 guitar approach (I'm assuming it's 3 guitars overlapping). I always like your vocals. They remind me of Scott Walker meets Lou Reed meets Bowie or something. I dunno, it's hard to place, but I like it.

Thanks Tad - as I recorded this ages ago - the music, anyway - I had to go back and have a look to work out what I'd done with the guitars - 6 actually.

L & R chording by 2 guitars, then two guitars playing each the other two parts, one in a low register and the other an octave above, panned to the other side - so it sort of sounds a bit like I've got a pitch pedal happening. 6 all up. The higher register stuff is quite low in the mix. Then in the chorus one each of each octave pair play the main part, along with the original 2 guitars and the other two of each octave pair play different parts. Then in the middle 8 it changes again. I must really have been feeling like I needed more complication in my life when I recorded it.

I'll incorporate your bass suggestion in the next mix and see how it sounds.

[vomitHatSteve]

Interesting story.

Mix sounds pretty good. On a first listen, the only thing that really stuck out to me is that the choruses are way more full than the verses. It stuck out a lot in the transition to the first chorus, but I noticed it less on subsequent ones.

[Bubba]

Interesting story.
the only thing that really stuck out to me is that the choruses are way more full than the verses.

Isn't that the point of choruses, generally?

[Armistice]

Interesting story.

Mix sounds pretty good. On a first listen, the only thing that really stuck out to me is that the choruses are way more full than the verses. It stuck out a lot in the transition to the first chorus, but I noticed it less on subsequent ones.

Thanks - yeah, I did notice that. I'm not spending shedloads of time on the "mastering" of these things - just getting them to 14 LUFS and keeping an eye on the true peaks. It certainly could be otherwise, but that would involve more work on the mastering chain - there's something that seems to be happening to my recent mixes where I can get the overall level "correct" in streaming/LUFS terms, but then it's a bit shy of what's considered "normal" in terms of peaks - I haven't quite worked it out yet. Then there's the ever present discussion over what's "normal" at this particular point in time of the musical mastering journey, anyway. I probably do need to do some work on it generally in my mixes but will kick that can down the road until I have an album's worth, so I can do it in a consistent fashion.

Interesting story.
the only thing that really stuck out to me is that the choruses are way more full than the verses.

Isn't that the point of choruses, generally?

There is that. On this particular song I think it needs a bit of work still, but it's not too bad.

[JD01]

Listening on good headphones this morning.
The bass is got that overly loud/resonant feeling with it, particularly on the low notes. Kind of washes over the mix. I think its cos its clashing with the kick, 'cos quite often I can barely place the kick in the mix.

Do you ever listen to a mix with everything muted except the bass and drums? I find it really helpful to get the kick and bass playing nice together then its easier to add everything else around them.

[Bubba]

Listening on good headphones this morning.
The bass is got that overly loud/resonant feeling with it, particularly on the low notes. Kind of washes over the mix. I think its cos its clashing with the kick, 'cos quite often I can barely place the kick in the mix.

Do you ever listen to a mix with everything muted except the bass and drums? I find it really helpful to get the kick and bass playing nice together then its easier to add everything else around them.

It sounds counter-intuitve, bearing in mind that you want bass from the bass instruments, but I often high-pass the bass guitar a bit, or at least low shelve it. In the context of a mix of this type, the energy contained in the bass frequencies is massively higher than in the mids and highs. You don't need it to be all that bassy, especially when combined with the kick. I usually gate the close miked kick on a real kit quite tightly, to tame that "washing over the mix" effect.
It's a similar thing with guitars. If you have more than, maybe, two guitars in a mix without attenuating the lower-mid frequencies, you rapidly get a buildup of muddiness, simply because the lower you go down the frequency range, the more energy is contained in it. When you get to three or four rhythm guitars there is a massive amount of low and mid frequency energy that you need to deal with. The guitars, when soloed, should sound much thinner than you would want if any one of them was the only one in the mix.

[vomitHatSteve]

Interesting story.
the only thing that really stuck out to me is that the choruses are way more full than the verses.

Isn't that the point of choruses, generally?

Lol, true.

[Armistice]

Listening on good headphones this morning.
The bass is got that overly loud/resonant feeling with it, particularly on the low notes. Kind of washes over the mix. I think its cos its clashing with the kick, 'cos quite often I can barely place the kick in the mix.

Do you ever listen to a mix with everything muted except the bass and drums? I find it really helpful to get the kick and bass playing nice together then its easier to add everything else around them.

It sounds counter-intuitve, bearing in mind that you want bass from the bass instruments, but I often high-pass the bass guitar a bit, or at least low shelve it. In the context of a mix of this type, the energy contained in the bass frequencies is massively higher than in the mids and highs. You don't need it to be all that bassy, especially when combined with the kick. I usually gate the close miked kick on a real kit quite tightly, to tame that "washing over the mix" effect.
It's a similar thing with guitars. If you have more than, maybe, two guitars in a mix without attenuating the lower-mid frequencies, you rapidly get a buildup of muddiness, simply because the lower you go down the frequency range, the more energy is contained in it. When you get to three or four rhythm guitars there is a massive amount of low and mid frequency energy that you need to deal with. The guitars, when soloed, should sound much thinner than you would want if any one of them was the only one in the mix.
[/quote]


The fundamental frequency of the kick drum I'm using is somewhere down around 50Hz or just under. Fundamental frequency of a 4 string bass goes from 40ish on the low E to wherever it goes. The song is in A, so that long note at the end of each verse phrase is 55Hz by my calculation - so it's always going to be in the same space as the kick.

In the chorus, the kick drum is syncopated and it doesn't always fall where the bass note is, but just before, and just before the snare - in a thump/crack thing. The bass note in those bars is on the snare - but mainly it's on the kick. But that's what gives the song its swing in the chorus - I tried straightening the kick out on those notes but it just lost something, so I put it back. So the bass isn't always in sync with the kick in the chorus - feature, not bug.

The bass has always had a low shelf on it. High pass on the kick under the fundamental frequency. On a side note, guitars are always high passed - where, depends upon what's going on, but higher than you'd do in simpler arrangements and there's usually a shallow wide cut around 350Hz or so to thin out the mud.

I do not play around with the kick envelope - it's the same kick I've used forever, and the same bass through the same profiles - this one being less bassy than others - so what I'm saying is there's nothing intrinsic in the sound and the interaction between those elements that hasn't been used dozens of times before. I listen to not just the drums and the bass, but just the kick drum and the bass and it's all quite distinct to me, given they're in the same frequency area. So I can't hear what you're talking about - not saying it's not there, just that I can't hear it - but I'm working with 6.5 inch drivers - bass is not super prominent from them.

That said, I've trimmed the sustain and release of the kick envelope to the point where the "bloom" so to speak starts to hit - it's now down at 0.32 seconds - was at about 0.5 - release down a little as well - this should give it a shorter kick sound - and put the new mix up in the OP. Done various other minor tweaks and tidy ups as well.

[JD01]

The fundamental frequency of the kick drum I'm using is somewhere down around 50Hz or just under. Fundamental frequency of a 4 string bass goes from 40ish on the low E to wherever it goes. The song is in A, so that long note at the end of each verse phrase is 55Hz by my calculation - so it's always going to be in the same space as the kick.

Armi, I think you're trying to over-science it a bit. I love a bit of science, but sometimes you just have to listen and work things out.
The bit from 1:40 tends to get the resonating bass washing over the mix, and the bit at 1:55 really does. Just loop that bit and play with the kick and bass EQ to get it to work.

[Armistice]

The fundamental frequency of the kick drum I'm using is somewhere down around 50Hz or just under. Fundamental frequency of a 4 string bass goes from 40ish on the low E to wherever it goes. The song is in A, so that long note at the end of each verse phrase is 55Hz by my calculation - so it's always going to be in the same space as the kick.

Armi, I think you're trying to over-science it a bit. I love a bit of science, but sometimes you just have to listen and work things out.
The bit from 1:40 tends to get the resonating bass washing over the mix, and the bit at 1:55 really does. Just loop that bit and play with the kick and bass EQ to get it to work.

I don't think I'm "over-sciencing" anything, JD - you've given me feedback that you're hearing something that no-one else, me included, is hearing - and so as I can't hear it, I'm tweaking possible mix parameters to see if they've made a difference - now I can hear the difference between mix 1 and 2 and because I know what the changes are - I don't think those changes did anything much to the overall bass response - it's different, but not necessarily better. And you're telling me the same thing - that whatever the issue is, is still there, but this time you've given me specific times to look at, which is helpful.

Alas I'm now in Sydney and won't be back home until Sunday afternoon, so there's nothing I can do further on it right now. When I get back I'll have a listen at those specific times and see what I can hear - but I have already listened through this song, in detail, to hear the thing that you're talking about and I'm not getting it. Perhaps I'll find it this time. There is no intrinsic difference that I can recall in the chorus that starts at 1:40 and the chorus that starts at 0:56 so I really don't know what it is, but I'll have a look. If it is there, I can tell you it's absolutely nothing to do with the bass guitar and kick drum as they have not changed one little bit between choruses, so perhaps it's overtones from the harmonies or something else, or perhaps it's not there at all and is something happening in your room with your monitors which isn't happening anywhere else. But I will have a listen when I return.

Cheers

[paulman]

Coming in late on the new mix, but it all sounds great to me. Full, clear, all the things. If anything I'd say the vocal could be a tad less dry (just a tiny bit), but that's about it.

[Bubba]

The fundamental frequency of the kick drum I'm using is somewhere down around 50Hz or just under. Fundamental frequency of a 4 string bass goes from 40ish on the low E to wherever it goes. The song is in A, so that long note at the end of each verse phrase is 55Hz by my calculation - so it's always going to be in the same space as the kick.

Armi, I think you're trying to over-science it a bit. I love a bit of science, but sometimes you just have to listen and work things out.
The bit from 1:40 tends to get the resonating bass washing over the mix, and the bit at 1:55 really does. Just loop that bit and play with the kick and bass EQ to get it to work.

I've listened to this on my bassy headphones and on my monitors (which have 8" drivers) and I cannot duplicate the reported fault.