vomitHatSteve wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2024 11:27 am
That's a hefty 6 string
yeah .... turns out a 30" scale is a bass actually according to fender. And the strings Fender makes for it are 100 - 25 ... hell, on the strings for my 5-string bass, the E is 100.
So it's a very short scale bass.
You can choose to go a bit lighter ( the ones it shipped with are 65-15 ) and then tune it B-B or A-A like a baritone ....... I'm not sure though that I want to mess with having it in a different tuning than standard and watching the Glenn Campbell vids he is clearly tuned E-E and octave down so that's a bass.
So I've learned a lot I did not know.
One thing ... this is my first Firefly and it is outstanding for just a couple of bills and they do make 27" baris.
I may have to get a goldtop with P90s from them .... maybe the relic'd one.
How does the math on string gauge actually work?
That 65 would be a B1? Versus my B-tuned bass which uses 130 on the B0 string. Is it really pretty close to half the thickness for double the pitch?
vomitHatSteve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:45 pm
How does the math on string gauge actually work?
That 65 would be a B1? Versus my B-tuned bass which uses 130 on the B0 string. Is it really pretty close to half the thickness for double the pitch?
well first .... IF you have your bass tuned down to B ( 4 string bass ? ) then that B is the same note as a low B on a 5 string and that's a B1, not B0 .... it doesn't go to 0 until A so if you tuned down 1 more step it'd be A0 ...... but your B is a B1 just like a 5 string bass's low B. ....... on a baritone tuned B-B the low B is B2 ... the 5th string is E2 ...... so the low B is an octave higher than low B on your bass ..... as for string thickness ... it's a shorter scale ..... 4" is a lot of scale length. What bass do you use?
That was what was confusing to me ..... I always thought a bass VI was an octave above a regular bass and it's not ... if tuned E-E the low E is E1 just like a bass.
I have a set of bass strings for it but I'm still torn a little ...... once I file the bridge to accommodate them, it's stuck that way ..... but as I said, the sound I want was done on a Danelectro 6-string bass ...... same scale ( 30") so I probably will.
vomitHatSteve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:45 pm
How does the math on string gauge actually work?
That 65 would be a B1? Versus my B-tuned bass which uses 130 on the B0 string. Is it really pretty close to half the thickness for double the pitch?
well first .... IF you have your bass tuned down to B ( 4 string bass ? ) then that B is the same note as a low B on a 5 string and that's a B1, not B0 .... it doesn't go to 0 until A so if you tuned down 1 more step it'd be A0 ...... but your B is a B1 just like a 5 string bass's low B. ....... on a baritone tuned B-B the low B is B2 ... the 5th string is E2 ...... so the low B is an octave higher than low B on your bass ..... as for string thickness ... it's a shorter scale ..... 4" is a lot of scale length. What bass do you use?
That was what was confusing to me ..... I always thought a bass VI was an octave above a regular bass and it's not ... if tuned E-E the low E is E1 just like a bass.
I have a set of bass strings for it but I'm still torn a little ...... once I file the bridge to accommodate them, it's stuck that way ..... but as I said, the sound I want was done on a Danelectro 6-string bass ...... same scale ( 30") so I probably will.
Yeah, it's B-E-A-D like a 5-string without the G. I've got a Peavy fretless and the Thomman rick clone both tuned like that with the same gauge strings.
I'm pretty sure the number change in the scale happens at C/B, not B/A. e.g. middle C is C4, one half step below that is B3
I could very well still be off-by-one in my description tho.
Lt. Bob wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 4:39 pm
well first .... IF you have your bass tuned down to B ( 4 string bass ? ) then that B is the same note as a low B on a 5 string and that's a B1, not B0 .... it doesn't go to 0 until A so if you tuned down 1 more step it'd be A0 ...... but your B is a B1 just like a 5 string bass's low B. ....... on a baritone tuned B-B the low B is B2 ... the 5th string is E2 ...... so the low B is an octave higher than low B on your bass ..... as for string thickness ... it's a shorter scale ..... 4" is a lot of scale length. What bass do you use?
That was what was confusing to me ..... I always thought a bass VI was an octave above a regular bass and it's not ... if tuned E-E the low E is E1 just like a bass.
I have a set of bass strings for it but I'm still torn a little ...... once I file the bridge to accommodate them, it's stuck that way ..... but as I said, the sound I want was done on a Danelectro 6-string bass ...... same scale ( 30") so I probably will.
Yeah, it's B-E-A-D like a 5-string without the G. I've got a Peavy fretless and the Thomman rick clone both tuned like that with the same gauge strings.
I'm pretty sure the number change in the scale happens at C/B, not B/A. e.g. middle C is C4, one half step below that is B3
I could very well still be off-by-one in my description tho.
I actually saw various statements on this but a casual search says you're right .... regardless that doesn't change anything ..... the low B on a bari is 1 octave above low B on a bass
Last edited by Lt. Bob on Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
vomitHatSteve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:45 pm
How does the math on string gauge actually work?
That 65 would be a B1? Versus my B-tuned bass which uses 130 on the B0 string. Is it really pretty close to half the thickness for double the pitch?
It's a pretty complicated bunch of physics and math. I can write it all out for anyone that is interested but essentially my old mantra of stiffness (mass per unit length), tension and string length are all that matter.
The mass per unit length is the key for string makers. A solid metal alloy string has a defined mass per unit length and low notes would need large diameter to sound, and the thicker the diameter the less "flexible" it becomes.. Until wound strings were a thing you needed massively long string lengths to get certain low pitch sounding strings. Google Theorbo, they were the only way the baroque could get those low notes. Wound strings changed all that. The windings allow for a more flexible string but adds sufficient mass to sound a lower pitch. Again their are obvious practical limits to that.
As for the baritone and tenor guitars, they are great if you want to hit a certain range of pitch and finding the right string gauges to get you where you want without being too sloppy or too stiff or to fat a string is half the fun.
muttley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:22 pm
Wound strings changed all that. The windings allow for a more flexible string but adds sufficient mass to sound a lower pitch. Again their are obvious practical limits to that.
Hear me out: Recursive wound strings. A .133 wound is just a .040 gauge string wrapped around another one give or take, right? So we take that .133 wound and wrap it around another .133 wound string to get a .399 gauge!
The stiffness (elasticity) of a string comes from it's core. The windings add uniform mass but don't add nearly as much stiffness. So, the mass per unit length is increased but the tension within the string is dependant on the core. That means that the windings do not material affect the tension which means we can load extra mass per unit length which allows us to drop the pitch for the same tension (and just as important, the same string length).
An example would be an unwound g'. Take that string and wind extra mass around it and make it a wound string.... for the same tension in that string you would lower the sounding note because you haver added mass per unit length. The tension is in the core, the extra mass is in the winding. The windings have little to no tension in them.
For want of a simplistic explanation we would be adding mass and lowering the pitch without changing the tension or "flexibility" significantly. When wound strings became a thing instruments changed dramatically. We ended up with the pianoforte for a start, and a louder and easier to play double bass. It is hard to understate the importance of string development on musical instruments at the time.
muttley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:22 pm
Wound strings changed all that. The windings allow for a more flexible string but adds sufficient mass to sound a lower pitch. Again their are obvious practical limits to that.
Hear me out: Recursive wound strings. A .133 wound is just a .040 gauge string wrapped around another one give or take, right? So we take that .133 wound and wrap it around another .133 wound string to get a .399 gauge!
Sort of but that isn't the point. You can control the pitch of a string by adjusting it's mass per unit length (stiffness) it's tension, or it's length. So within limits, you can pretty much wrap a solid core string with whatever wind you like to control the mass without "significantly" changing the other factors.
