Old Song - Part retracked and remixed

[JD01]

Gents,

Apologies for the re-post of an ancient song of mine. But I've been working on integrating my new vocal mic (the NT1) and Superior Drummer into my mixes and I want to develop my starting template going forward as I've got a bunch more songs on the go but don't want to put any more time into them until I've got them transferred across.

Any help would be good. I've been listening to this back to back with a couple of reference mixes and while I think its one of my better mixes the bass/kick relationship is still boomy. The bass guitar is actually hi passed at 70 to try and get it out of the way of the kick.

Cheers,

JD

01 - No Choice SD and NT1 Mix.mp3

01 - No Choice New Mix 1.mp3

[WhiskeyJack]

pls provide a link to the previous iteration of this project so one can have a respectable A/B point of reference.


thx.
mgmnt.

[TheTestingYak]

yes. gud choon.

[JD01]

pls provide a link to the previous iteration of this project so one can have a respectable A/B point of reference.


thx.
mgmnt.

I did look for it briefly. Think it might even date back to HR.

[JD01]

yes. gud choon.

Also, use of Yak worries me. It means you're about to break something.

[TK421]

yes. gud choon.

Also, use of Yak worries me. It means you're about to break something.

[vomitHatSteve]

2 test accounts? Things are popping off!

So the vox and drums are new?

The ride is kind of clicky and close.
Gang vox are a little unenthusiastic.

[WhiskeyJack]

2 test accounts? Things are popping off!

So the vox and drums are new?

The ride is kind of clicky and close.
Gang vox are a little unenthusiastic.

[mention]TK421[/mention] Is actually a useful but absent piece of muscle. The lone moderator and house keeper. They should be feared. Not Mocked.

[rayc]

Where's the kick drum? I hear a click drum though.
My brain hears the click of the kick and ignores the thud..psychoacoustics of a psycho talking acoustics?
Apart from the click drum i rather like it.

[JD01]

2 test accounts? Things are popping off!

So the vox and drums are new?

The ride is kind of clicky and close.
Gang vox are a little unenthusiastic.

Cheers, I was actually quite liking the sound of the ride, listening back now you've mentioned it you've really drawn my attention to it.

Yeah - the gang vox - single tracks in isolation sound suitably aggressive, but they're all me, stacked up and mixed at the right sort of level they sound a bit weak. I'll see if I can draft in some help.

[JD01]

Where's the kick drum? I hear a click drum though.
My brain hears the click of the kick and ignores the thud..psychoacoustics of a psycho talking acoustics?
Apart from the click drum i rather like it.

I know what you mean - I'm getting the thump but it has no definition.
The click is very obvious - I like a bit of click but this is probably a bit too much.

Kick drum has always been a problem for me.

[Greg_L]

I remember this one. I might have done a mix on it one time?

It is better and worse in some ways from what I remember. The unnecessary guitar intro and Carlos Santana bits in the first verse are worse. The rest is better. And that's maybe the best guitar solo I've heard from you. Is that new? That solo is more rock and roll and less metal, and that's a good thing. You get a little weird with the vocal cadence and phrasing starting around the 1:00 mark, but overall it's pretty good vocals.

I'm not crazy about the drums. I know you're still learning that program so it's no big deal.

One thing I notice that is both good and bad is that your mixes keep sounding generally the same no matter what programs or tools you use. On one hand that's really good in my opinion because you have a sound in mind and you keep chasing it. But on the other hand it tells me that you're kind of in a sound rut. You're making this new stuff sound like the old stuff because it's a comfort zone, or something like that. That's a hard rut to get out of because it's all mental. You just gotta let go of preconceived ideas and old processes and go totally fresh.

[JD01]

I remember this one. I might have done a mix on it one time?

It is better and worse in some ways from what I remember. The unnecessary guitar intro and Carlos Santana bits in the first verse are worse. The rest is better. And that's maybe the best guitar solo I've heard from you. Is that new? That solo is more rock and roll and less metal, and that's a good thing. You get a little weird with the vocal cadence and phrasing starting around the 1:00 mark, but overall it's pretty good vocals.

I'm not crazy about the drums. I know you're still learning that program so it's no big deal.

One thing I notice that is both good and bad is that your mixes keep sounding generally the same no matter what programs or tools you use. On one hand that's really good in my opinion because you have a sound in mind and you keep chasing it. But on the other hand it tells me that you're kind of in a sound rut. You're making this new stuff sound like the old stuff because it's a comfort zone, or something like that. That's a hard rut to get out of because it's all mental. You just gotta let go of preconceived ideas and old processes and go totally fresh.

Cheers dude, was hoping you've had a listen. You did have a crack at it for me years ago to give me something to shoot for.
Yeah - I know what you mean about the intro... its a bit Boys Of Summer, I'm on the fence with it for now - its not in the mix with the rest of the song so I could just delete it - same with the Santana bits - they are unnecessary.

The solo isn't new, but its not a complex one - its just a few octave chords and then me aggressively smashing away on pentatonic stuff with little else. I probably recorded it in the last year or so - likely to have been on of the first things I did with my H&K. Its not really written though, just had a rough idea what I was after and went for it.

Drums - what you think I should do? This is the bit I'd really like to get right.
I've gone as fresh as I can with this. Totally new drum programme, all new samples. I've not kept any EQ or compression settings.
I have kept the drum buss compressor similar - I started for Reaper's NY Drum Buss. template and worked from there, its not the same though.

You're right, I do have a sound in my head which I'm chasing. For this older punky stuff - I'm aiming for True North. I use it as my reference mix.

Re: vocals, yeah, they're alright. I was experimenting with lots of harmonies in the verse. One thing I have found with this mic, might be down to how I am mixing them, bit more confidence etc, but its the first time I've felt like my vocals fit in the mix as opposed to sound like someone singing along with a backing track. Not sure if you know what I mean, but that's the only way I can describe it.

[Greg_L]

Drums - what you think I should do? This is the bit I'd really like to get right.
I've gone as fresh as I can with this. Totally new drum programme, all new samples. I've not kept any EQ or compression settings.
I have kept the drum buss compressor similar - I started for Reaper's NY Drum Buss. template and worked from there, its not the same though.

I don't know what to do about the drums because I don't know that program. I do know that if it were me I'd get more focus from the snare drum and...I don't even know about that klick. With kick drums there is a difference between "click" and "slap". It's subtle but it's the difference between an unnatural pretty annoying typewriter and the natural thwack of a beater hitting a kick drum. I think most drum mixers look around 2-3k for the attack, but for me I think you need to go higher. It really depends on the beater and the kick heads and what's happening in the overheads, but there is attack in the 5k-6k range that might do better than the usual 2.5k. Also, get the mids out of the kick. You don't need any 400-500hz in the kick drum. That's bad. And I'm not sure you need to carve out space for the kick and/or bass. They can and will play nicely together without needing a bunch of crap. The low end of the guitars and a good chunk of the bass can live in that low mid area that kick drums don't need anyway. So you notch the low mids from the kick and it by default helps the guitars and bass. And without all that boxy crap in the kick drum, it can also often let the top end sound better so you don't have to spike a frequency for the attack. It's all sympatico! Another thing I sometimes find with kick drums, and it seems counter intuitive, is that there can sometimes be yucky crap between 100-200hz. Way low, but not in the sub range. By itself that range sounds fine in a kick drum. But with bass and guitars next to it, a little notch in that range can tighten the kick's low end and actually make it punchier. You definitely want whatever is happening from like 50-80hz, maybe even boost it a little, but after that, up to around 200hz, it can sometimes be helpful to lightly take a little out.

So, tl/dr, kick drum....chunk out 400hz, wide boost up high around 5k, maybe notch a little out from 100-200hz, slight boost from 50-80hz.

And after aaaaalllllll that nonsense just for a kick drum....on your drum bus, use something like a channel strip EQ to further tighten and shape the entire drum mix. Use a stereo compressor to massage and make the things cohesive. Use big reverb with short decay. All that stuff adds up to a nice natural but modern drum mix.

[JD01]

Drums - what you think I should do? This is the bit I'd really like to get right.
I've gone as fresh as I can with this. Totally new drum programme, all new samples. I've not kept any EQ or compression settings.
I have kept the drum buss compressor similar - I started for Reaper's NY Drum Buss. template and worked from there, its not the same though.

I don't know what to do about the drums because I don't know that program. I do know that if it were me I'd get more focus from the snare drum and...I don't even know about that klick. With kick drums there is a difference between "click" and "slap". It's subtle but it's the difference between an unnatural pretty annoying typewriter and the natural thwack of a beater hitting a kick drum. I think most drum mixers look around 2-3k for the attack, but for me I think you need to go higher. It really depends on the beater and the kick heads and what's happening in the overheads, but there is attack in the 5k-6k range that might do better than the usual 2.5k. Also, get the mids out of the kick. You don't need any 400-500hz in the kick drum. That's bad. And I'm not sure you need to carve out space for the kick and/or bass. They can and will play nicely together without needing a bunch of crap. The low end of the guitars and a good chunk of the bass can live in that low mid area that kick drums don't need anyway. So you notch the low mids from the kick and it by default helps the guitars and bass. And without all that boxy crap in the kick drum, it can also often let the top end sound better so you don't have to spike a frequency for the attack. It's all sympatico! Another thing I sometimes find with kick drums, and it seems counter intuitive, is that there can sometimes be yucky crap between 100-200hz. Way low, but not in the sub range. By itself that range sounds fine in a kick drum. But with bass and guitars next to it, a little notch in that range can tighten the kick's low end and actually make it punchier. You definitely want whatever is happening from like 50-80hz, maybe even boost it a little, but after that, up to around 200hz, it can sometimes be helpful to lightly take a little out.

So, tl/dr, kick drum....chunk out 400hz, wide boost up high around 5k, maybe notch a little out from 100-200hz, slight boost from 50-80hz.

And after aaaaalllllll that nonsense just for a kick drum....on your drum bus, use something like a channel strip EQ to further tighten and shape the entire drum mix. Use a stereo compressor to massage and make the things cohesive. Use big reverb with short decay. All that stuff adds up to a nice natural but modern drum mix.

Cheers, that's all useful stuff to think about. Hopefully I can have a good go at tidying this up later. I think the main problems with this mix are kick-related. When I recorded the rhythm guitars for the chorus I remember thinking they were the best sound I'd ever got! Some of my first H&K tones, and I still think they're good now, so they're definitely staying.

Can be slightly difficult to hear the detail of the kick on my headphones which is where I do all my detailed work, but I'll then be tweaking when I can have the monitors up nice and loud on Friday.

Will try putting the Red2 on the drum buss to shape it further.
ReaComp is a stero compressor isn't it?

Re: Reverb. I just use my favourite Lexicon impulse for everything. There's only ever one reverb in the whole mix.

[Greg_L]

Cheers, that's all useful stuff to think about. Hopefully I can have a good go at tidying this up later. I think the main problems with this mix are kick-related. When I recorded the rhythm guitars for the chorus I remember thinking they were the best sound I'd ever got! Some of my first H&K tones, and I still think they're good now, so they're definitely staying.

Can be slightly difficult to hear the detail of the kick on my headphones which is where I do all my detailed work, but I'll then be tweaking when I can have the monitors up nice and loud on Friday.

Will try putting the Red2 on the drum buss to shape it further.
ReaComp is a stero compressor isn't it?

Re: Reverb. I just use my favourite Lexicon impulse for everything. There's only ever one reverb in the whole mix.

Can you send me the raw drum tracks as individual track wavs? I really just wanna see what you're dealing with. Throw bass and just rhythm guitars in too if you can. If I can hear what you're starting with I might be able to give you some info that's more useful than just general ideas.

[JD01]

Cheers, that's all useful stuff to think about. Hopefully I can have a good go at tidying this up later. I think the main problems with this mix are kick-related. When I recorded the rhythm guitars for the chorus I remember thinking they were the best sound I'd ever got! Some of my first H&K tones, and I still think they're good now, so they're definitely staying.

Can be slightly difficult to hear the detail of the kick on my headphones which is where I do all my detailed work, but I'll then be tweaking when I can have the monitors up nice and loud on Friday.

Will try putting the Red2 on the drum buss to shape it further.
ReaComp is a stero compressor isn't it?

Re: Reverb. I just use my favourite Lexicon impulse for everything. There's only ever one reverb in the whole mix.

Can you send me the raw drum tracks as individual track wavs? I really just wanna see what you're dealing with. Throw bass and just rhythm guitars in too if you can. If I can hear what you're starting with I might be able to give you some info that's more useful than just general ideas.

OK, that would be ace if you would.
You mean you want me to turn off every VST/send/eq etc and render the drums completely dry? Then add in the bass and guitars?
No problem. Will just take me a little while.

[Greg_L]

OK, that would be ace if you would.
You mean you want me to turn off every VST/send/eq etc and render the drums completely dry? Then add in the bass and guitars?
No problem. Will just take me a little while.

Yes. Absolutely no EQ, no processing, totally raw dry basic individual tracks. As if you just mic'd a band and these are the raw live tracks.

[JD01]

OK, that would be ace if you would.
You mean you want me to turn off every VST/send/eq etc and render the drums completely dry? Then add in the bass and guitars?
No problem. Will just take me a little while.

Yes. Absolutely no EQ, no processing, totally raw dry basic individual tracks. As if you just mic'd a band and these are the raw live tracks.

Will do - I'll wang it all into a Reaper project and send it to you that way.
You should end up with a raw garagey sounding mix.

I've leave my favoured reverb impulse in there but I won't have anything sent to it. Just so you know what one I'm using - you'll likely have a better idea.

[Greg_L]

Will do - I'll wang it all into a Reaper project and send it to you that way.
You should end up with a raw garagey sounding mix.

I've leave my favoured reverb impulse in there but I won't have anything sent to it. Just so you know what one I'm using - you'll likely have a better idea.