Honey Hunters / Rockets

[Armistice]

So it's only taken me 18 months to turn out another fully complete tune, after the HH debut album...

And I told myself I was going to go "simpler" but I seem to have thrown the kitchen sink at this one - although it's pretty simple musically I guess. And I don't really like doing guitar solos - but for some reason this song has 3, including the intro - not sure if that's a solo or an intro.

Anyway - here it is - called "Rockets", which is a metaphor - no actual rockets are inside.

Any and all comments appreciated...

SEE BELOW...

[Tadpui]

Good to hear some tunes from you!

My initial impression was 2 things pretty much straight off: the guitars are too loud and drums are too quiet. But maybe turning down the guitars will make the drums sound fine, or maybe turning up the drums will make the guitars sound fine.

Actually at about 4:20 the guitars sounded just right when they relaxed a bit.

Nice job man, everything sounds sparkling clean and clear.

First listen was on the ADAMs, giving a 2nd listen on the Yamahas w/sub. I think that the low end sounds nice. There seems to be enough low end from the kick and bass guitar, but they both disappeared on the ADAMs. That usually tells me they need something in the mids to help them compete outside of the low end.

Again, nice job. This was a pleasant listen. All of the parts are thoughtful and well performed.

[Armistice]

Good to hear some tunes from you!

My initial impression was 2 things pretty much straight off: the guitars are too loud and drums are too quiet. But maybe turning down the guitars will make the drums sound fine, or maybe turning up the drums will make the guitars sound fine.

Actually at about 4:20 the guitars sounded just right when they relaxed a bit.

Nice job man, everything sounds sparkling clean and clear.

First listen was on the ADAMs, giving a 2nd listen on the Yamahas w/sub. I think that the low end sounds nice. There seems to be enough low end from the kick and bass guitar, but they both disappeared on the ADAMs. That usually tells me they need something in the mids to help them compete outside of the low end.

Again, nice job. This was a pleasant listen. All of the parts are thoughtful and well performed.

Cheers Tad - I hadn't checked against the last album - which I now almost universally regard as having the drums too loud! - but when I did I saw that, yes, they were comparatively quieter in Rockets. So I wound the drums about enough to split the difference, so about 3dB louder in the track below - nothing else changed, so we'll see how that plays... thanks for the listen.

SEE BELOW....

[rayc]

From the off it sounds like a David Smith song.
Signature sounds, signature guitar lace.
1.46ish the vocals struggle under the cords for a moment of three.
I listened to both and I do like the 2nd drums up version.
I don't hear any problems with the bottom end.
Television meets Gangajang perhaps.
REALLY good David. I look forward to the album.

[Bubba]

This is a great listen, David. I do agree with Tad in that the guitars, especially the main one over to the right in the verses, could lose a dB or two. It's fine in the choruses but slightly swamping the vocal in the verses.

I may be alone in thinking that the drums sound a bit brittle or over-bright? Maybe it's the overheads that could come down a little, or at least have the HF shelved off a tiny bit, but I would raise the close-miked snare to compensate.
It's a great start, and it's not far off.

[JD01]

I'm listened to the 2nd version with adjusted drums.
It was immediately recognizable as you which is always a good start.

You could probably bring the drums up a couple of db more and the guitars down a touch too.
Guitars sound great.
Bass is a bit innocuous - that might be how you like it, seems like its at the right kind of level, but it doesn't stand out at all.

Really good song though... I hope we live long enough to get a 2nd album.
The tone on the outro lead is getting swamped by everything else - give it a little grit maybe? Make it stand out more.

[Armistice]

Thanks [mention]rayc[/mention] and [mention]Bubba[/mention] - sundry twerks made...

Shelved the overheads a bit, made the words ray mentioned stand out a bit more, thinned out the main guitars...

Sorry @[mention]JD01[/mention] - I just missed your comments, but I've never been a huge fan of an overly fat/trebly bass sound - so I'm OK with it as it is. Same with the tone on the outro guitar. It sounds crystal clear to me sitting in the next room typing this, but I'll have to put it through my stereo / car etc. next to see how it really works... I'll have to get back to you on that...

Next album - well, this is one song down... so 2021, mebbe...

So, how am I doing? Take 3...

SEE BELOW...

A bit of trivia - seeing my strat got no almost love at all on the last album, all guitars on this song are it.

[Bubba]

The drum sound is definitely very much improved, David - they sound much more natural now to my ear and not dulled at all. I still think that the guitars in the verse are whelming the vocals a bit, especially when compared with the chorus - the guitar seems to back off relative to the vocal in the choruses, where you would expect it to lift them a little. I welcome everybody else's thoughts on this, though.
I think the bass is spot on for this kind of thing, by the way.

[rayc]

All cool re my mention. I quite like the bass tone for the song - the one Bubba played on recently for me has a rounder bass sound - different tones for different purposes.
I'm not sure how I feel about the potential of a mental picture of you twerking David. Would that be rather like the average Australian male drunk on the dance floor?

[vomitHatSteve]

Starting with SUPERSEDE version.

Rhythm guitars sound really nice. They mix well with the vox.

That intro guitar kind of has riff feel when it starts. It gets more soloey when it changes. You might get better mileage without the change.

I like that down bridge. Who did the "oohs"?

The snare isn't sitting quite right for me. It sounds like much more of a rock snare, which doesn't really match the vibe of the song. In turn, that makes the drums sound canned overall.

[WhiskeyJack]

Very cool to see some Armi jams in here today. Listening now to take three skipping the first iterations.

Pretty cool song overall that smacks of your personal brand. The Strat really changes the texture for sure compared to the Honey Hunters jams i am used to. That is immediate and stands out like a sore thumb. Not really in a bad way i don't think.You've managed to avoid some of the telltale strat stuff i personally find off putting. thanks for keeping me in mind LOL! I'm am on my best pair of cans at the moment and i do find the guits to maybe be a tad bit loud in some spots. Maybe that is normal for clean guitars and stuff. I'll have to toss it on my monitors and crank it up and report back.

I think when it get's really busy at the end i have to agree with VHS about the snare being a bit offensive as a canned snare. Thats about the only spot i hear it though. I think it get's a pass until that outro.

Lastly you got a weird click/pop artifact @ 3:19

[TripleM]

I think you've taken care of most everything in the three mixes.

My only small complaint is the bass is kind of low-heavy. I think a "lighter" bass would work better in a mix like this.

OK maybe nudge the guitars down just a bit in the verses. They compete with the vocal just a bit.

Other than that it sounds very good.

[Armistice]

Ok - thanks everybody - I have done various things - [mention]WhiskeyJack[/mention] and [mention]TripleM[/mention] I have reduced the volume of the main guitars in the verses just a touch, and also, I hope [mention]WhiskeyJack[/mention] found that pop - I think I need to sing with about 6 pop filters! [mention]vomitHatSteve[/mention] I have dicked around with the snare a little - put a bit more bottom mic in it - it's mix of two samples as it is so I de-emphasised the thuddy one over the more realistic one. Also revisited some of the rolls and tweaked them a touch - I got what you mean there. And the oohs are me doing falsetto... quite shakily, but it sort of works.

Hopefully a bit better now, and getting close to finished. I'll kill off the other versions above now as well.

TAKE 4

Yeah, yeah, keep scrolling..

[TripleM]

The guitar in the verse stays out of the way now.

The low end of the bass still sounds pretty strong.

[Armistice]

The guitar in the verse stays out of the way now.

The low end of the bass still sounds pretty strong.

Thanks - I'll have a listen in my car later - that's usually a good indication on bass - my mixing area is somewhat compromised and bass can be a bit hard to work out - nodes and shit...

[musicturtle]

Late to listen here, looks like you pretty much have it sorted.

But I can still say very nicely done [mention]Armistice[/mention]!

[Armistice]

Thank you kind [mention]musicturtle[/mention] sir...

[rayc]

Listening to the most recent mix - seems like the song is an old friend already.
COOOOL.

[Bubba]

Hi Armi
It's mostly sounding really good but I still have a couple of niggles. Firstly I'll say that the bass sounds spot on, to me.

Listening on headphones, the two sides of the mix aren't balanced, to me - there definitely sounds to be more going on in the right ear than on the left. This is still most noticeable in the verses. The guitar in the right ear is apparently a good bit louder than the one on the left. I've put "apparently" in italics, because I've come across this phenomenon before.
I know from our chat conversations that you have the two guitars showing exactly the same volume on the meters. You also told me that they are both recorded using a stereo FX pedal. Now, when I recorded my Roland JC120 Jazz Chorus amp, using two microphones to capture the stereo chorus effect, I had both channels at exactly the same volume on the meters and panned left and right to maximise the spread. To my surprise, the guitar apparently leaned strongly to the side of the un-effected channel. I recorded an identical second dose of the guitar and switched L&R channels. This time the guitar leaned strongly in the opposite direction and this is how I ended up mixing the track to get a balanced mix.

The long and the short of it is, I think something similar is going on here. The mix sounds a little empty on the left, particularly when the guitar break comes in and it's also panned over to the right! I don't know what to suggest other than to evaluate the mix balance critically on headphones and adjust the two rhythm guitars to a point where they sound balanced, despite what the meters say. Maybe switch your left and right channels on the other stereo guitar track as I did?

[Armistice]

Hi Armi
It's mostly sounding really good but I still have a couple of niggles. Firstly I'll say that the bass sounds spot on, to me.

Listening on headphones, the two sides of the mix aren't balanced, to me - there definitely sounds to be more going on in the right ear than on the left. This is still most noticeable in the verses. The guitar in the right ear is apparently a good bit louder than the one on the left. I've put "apparently" in italics, because I've come across this phenomenon before.
I know from our chat conversations that you have the two guitars showing exactly the same volume on the meters. You also told me that they are both recorded using a stereo FX pedal. Now, when I recorded my Roland JC120 Jazz Chorus amp, using two microphones to capture the stereo chorus effect, I had both channels at exactly the same volume on the meters and panned left and right to maximise the spread. To my surprise, the guitar apparently leaned strongly to the side of the un-effected channel. I recorded an identical second dose of the guitar and switched L&R channels. This time the guitar leaned strongly in the opposite direction and this is how I ended up mixing the track to get a balanced mix.

The long and the short of it is, I think something similar is going on here. The mix sounds a little empty on the left, particularly when the guitar break comes in and it's also panned over to the right! I don't know what to suggest other than to evaluate the mix balance critically on headphones and adjust the two rhythm guitars to a point where they sound balanced, despite what the meters say. Maybe switch your left and right channels on the other stereo guitar track as I did?

Thanks for your continued attention Bubs...

I've always been happy with the bass sound, personally - it's a preference thing. The worst bass player in the world as far as I'm concerned is/was Chris Squire (only just realised he was dead... ) from Yes who of course was recognised as a great bass player but I just can't stand that overly featured, trebly bass sound he uses. Which is why I was never a Yes fan. Bass should be heard but not seen, IMO... Glad you agree with me!

I can hear the imbalance of which you speak after doing a bit of soloing and getting the cans on it, but it was a long way from bothering me - it has to do with the fundamentally different nature of the two sounds - one is cleaner, the other middier and grittier, and that although they're playing the same thing, one side has an echo and the other a delay, which sounds nitpicky but makes a difference - so in the mix below I've just pulled it back a little in the verses and rebalanced in the choruses - so hopefully this will sort it out - the grittier delayed sound is the R and it's poking through more. Thanks for hounding me on that one...

All 3 solo guitars - intro, middle, outro - are panned dead centre and always have been - they're absolutely not panned to the right. They have a plug in dual delay added which, if anything would push left - but it's barely noticeable. So I can't hear that, and so I can't actually fix it...


TAKE BLOODY FIVE...



I'm exhausted....