NEW GEAR!! Buying anything?

[Greg_L]

[Tadpui]

Hahaha! You guys kill me.

But damnit, the last thing I needed to hear was that the amp was a good deal. Son of a &%$#

I'll give it a few days, and hopefully it'll disappear out from under me. Problem solved!

**secretly bookmarks that listing and puts a link on his desktop for quick access**

[Greg_L]

Hahaha! You guys kill me.

But damnit, the last thing I needed to hear was that the amp was a good deal. Son of a &%$#

I'll give it a few days, and hopefully it'll disappear out from under me. Problem solved!

**secretly bookmarks that listing and puts a link on his desktop for quick access**

It's not a great deal, but it's not a ridiculous asking price. Those amps are hot right now, and may never come back down. The 77/78 2203s are very highly regarded with Marshall nuts. Just a quick look, it looks like the PI caps, a few resistors, and the tube sockets have been replaced. All the jacks have been replaced. None of that is a big deal, but it is something. The filter and bias caps should probably be replaced just for the health of the amp. I'm not a big believer in replacing old stuff just because, but those things have a lifespan and if they go totally bad, bad things happen.

But keep in mind that it won't be much different from your 2204. And it's loud as fuck.

[Minerman]

It's not a great deal, but it's not a ridiculous asking price. Those amps are hot right now, and may never come back down.

The 77/78 2203s are very highly regarded with Marshall nuts. Just a quick look, it looks like the PI caps, a few resistors, and the tube sockets have been replaced. All the jacks have been replaced. None of that is a big deal, but it is something. The filter and bias caps should probably be replaced just for the health of the amp. I'm not a big believer in replacing old stuff just because, but those things have a lifespan and if they go totally bad, bad things happen.

But keep in mind that it won't be much different from your 2204.

And it's loud as fuck.

Words of wisdom from our forum's Top Marshall Reverend, repeated by one of his disciples...

Tad, I can't tell you whether to pull the trigger or not, & that's a big 'ol chunk of change (for me anyway)...
But just remember we only get one turn on this ride we call life, so make sure your turn makes you happy dude...

[Tadpui]

It's not a great deal, but it's not a ridiculous asking price. Those amps are hot right now, and may never come back down. The 77/78 2203s are very highly regarded with Marshall nuts. Just a quick look, it looks like the PI caps, a few resistors, and the tube sockets have been replaced. All the jacks have been replaced. None of that is a big deal, but it is something. The filter and bias caps should probably be replaced just for the health of the amp. I'm not a big believer in replacing old stuff just because, but those things have a lifespan and if they go totally bad, bad things happen.

But keep in mind that it won't be much different from your 2204. And it's loud as fuck.

Thanks for the once-over, Greg! If I did pull the trigger on this kind of amp, it would have to be as a replacement and not a compliment to my 2203. I love my little shorty 2203, but I've always felt like those earlier models had a certain mojo to them that my 80s model lacks. And yeah, doubling the wattage from my 50-watter would be stupid loud. With the Torpedo that's not a concern, but if I ever wanted to actually play it into a 4x12 (that same dude is selling a period-correct cab with the cool basket weave front like my 4x10 has), it would basically be a bat-signal for the cops to come and visit.

Words of wisdom from our forum's Top Marshall Reverend, repeated by one of his disciples...

Tad, I can't tell you whether to pull the trigger or not, & that's a big 'ol chunk of change (for me anyway)...
But just remember we only get one turn on this ride we call life, so make sure your turn makes you happy dude...

Thanks Miner. I'm gonna have to sleep on this one for a couple of days and see if I'm actually willing to part with my 2203 to fund a vintage 2204. It could happen, but I'll want to consider it for a bit.

[Greg_L]

Thanks for the once-over, Greg! If I did pull the trigger on this kind of amp, it would have to be as a replacement and not a compliment to my 2203. I love my little shorty 2203, but I've always felt like those earlier models had a certain mojo to them that my 80s model lacks. And yeah, doubling the wattage from my 50-watter would be stupid loud. With the Torpedo that's not a concern, but if I ever wanted to actually play it into a 4x12 (that same dude is selling a period-correct cab with the cool basket weave front like my 4x10 has), it would basically be a bat-signal for the cops to come and visit.

Yours is a 2204, right? 2204S? Small box 50 watt?
This reverb listing you're looking at is a 2203 - 100 watt.
You just got your Marshall circuit codes backwards. Just FYI.

A 2203 is not actually a lot louder than a 2204, but it really just seems a lot louder. And the volume comes on fast. It's got more headroom and it's punchier than a 2204. And it's brighter. The 2203 is a bright amp unless you've got it wound up pretty good - then it's glorious. But if you're just going into a load box, I guess that doesn't matter. Just to give you an idea of how loud these things get and how fast...my drumming gig band has two guitar players and an Ampeg SVT 8x10 bass rig. Now, with me on drums, and I'm a hard hitting basher, guitar player A uses a JCM 800 2203 and guitar player B uses a 100 watt JVM 410 or a Jubilee. Guitar player A and his 2203, against my drums, bass, and the other guitar player, keeps his 2203 volume on 2. Yes, 2. Fucking 2, and he is puh-lenty loud enough against the rest of us.

[JD01]

Guitar player A and his 2203, against my drums, bass, and the other guitar player, keeps his 2203 volume on 2. Yes, 2. Fucking 2, and he is puh-lenty loud enough against the rest of us.

When you get to 2 on these amps is that most of the volume in terms of decibels already in though? I'm assuming that turning it up to 10 doesn't make it 5 times as loud!

[Greg_L]

When you get to 2 on these amps is that most of the volume in terms of decibels already in though? I'm assuming that turning it up to 10 doesn't make it 5 times as loud!

Oh no. It's not linear like that, but there's way more available after 2. I'd say a typical 2203 will level out at around 6-7 on the master volume. And by then it's so loud you literally can't hear anything else. A 2203 on 7 through a single 4x12 is crazy crazy loud and way too loud for a typical bar/club gig. It's ear-damaging loud.

There are like five volume ranges on one of these amps. These are general estimates:
1) 0-1 - TV volume - sounds terrible
2) 1-2 - loud-ish bedroom volume. You can dick around at home like this, but it can tire your ears out if you're right in front of it
3) 2-4 - this is the typical usable gig range for a 2203 used by a mere mortal not playing stadiums
3) 4-6 - this is the sweet spot where the power section starts coming alive and it really starts singing
4) 6-10 - pretty much insanity for anything but recording if you can get away with this much volume

[JD01]

Cool - Cheers.

I'm really pleased I have 1W, 5W and 20W modes! I've played the amp on 40W but I've never recorded it like that I can't turn it up loud enough on 40W mode.
I rarely had my Blackstar far above 1/2 way on the master to compete with a drummer and that was only 20W

[Greg_L]

Cool - Cheers.

I'm really pleased I have 1W, 5W and 20W modes! I've played the amp on 40W but I've never recorded it like that I can't turn it up loud enough on 40W mode.
I rarely had my Blackstar far above 1/2 way on the master to compete with a drummer and that was only 20W

Have you tried 40w mode at the same relative volume level as 20w or 5w mode? How does 40w turned down a little compare to 5w turned way up?

This is where, for me, the little amp thing falls short. Tone wise. An by "little" amp I'm talking like 1-18 watts with a master volume. Anything 20w and up is usually stout enough to compete with a live band. Little amps are great for size and weight considerations and all that. But just for tone....

The idea is that a little amp cranked sounds better than a monster turned down. That's the marketing behind the little amp craze. I find that to be totally untrue. 100% false. Why? A little amp turned way up has no breathing room left. It has no headroom. It has nothing left to give. A "cranked" amp with a master volume rarely sounds it's best. I don't care of it's 1 watt or 100 watts. If it has a master volume, use it. That's what it's for. A 2203 is way too loud to crank in most situations, but that's not where it's best anyway. A turned down 100 watt 2203 might not be giving you all it's got, but it still sounds like it should and it sounds better than a 5 watt amp on the verge of death. And there's also the power sections. What do 50-100 watt amps have that little amps don't? Lots of great sounding power tubes and massive heavy-iron transformers. I won't get into all that, but transformers matter. Size matters.

So does anyone really need 50 or100 watt amps? No. Not really. But it's not just about volume. The big amps turned down still offer a lot of tonal benefits that the little amp can't do.

IMO you can get away with it somewhat if you use a little head into a big cab, but then you're getting into physically big gear, and by then you might as well go full stack.

[JD01]

I don't have a db meter to do anything really scientific but I find that it sounds better on the lower watt settings when the perceived volume is about the same. 40W really is loud so I have to have the master down quite a long way to make it feel the same in the room as say 5W with the master on 50%.

At some point I'll stick a db meter about a metre from the amp and see what levels on the amp I end up with to get say 95db. I think you can get a a db meter amp for you phone actually.

[Greg_L]

I don't have a db meter to do anything really scientific but I find that it sounds better on the lower watt settings when the perceived volume is about the same. 40W really is loud so I have to have the master down quite a long way to make it feel the same in the room as say 5W with the master on 50%.

At some point I'll stick a db meter about a metre from the amp and see what levels on the amp I end up with to get say 95db. I think you can get a a db meter amp for you phone actually.

Just ballpark it with recording input levels.


I did a similar test a few years ago with my amps and master volumes and attenuators.

I

[JD01]

Good idea. I'm not sure what the H&K power soak feature does, whether its an attenuator or something else.

EDIT, seems like its a bit of both:
"Well, first off, you’ll find it on the TubeMeister and GrandMeister amps, and what it does is allow you to enjoy the benefits of full-blown power amp saturation – and therefore the most delicious guitar tones imaginable – at low volumes (which, by the way, also makes it perfect for you to play at home without annoying the neighbors too much – more on exactly that here).

On the GrandMeister and the TubeMeister 36 (both of which pump out 36 watts in full power mode) the power soak works by first disabling two tubes to reduce the output power by half – to a still pretty rocking 18 watts. When you press the 5W and 1W buttons, some of the power is converted into heat to further reduce the output to five watts and one watt respectively."

So, 40W - 20W disengages two tubes, then going down to 5W and 1W creates heat which sounds like attenuation to me.
That info above is for the Tubemeister 36 which I don't think they make anymore - mine is a TM40.

[JD01]

Just went cycling though my wattages on my amp! 1/2 on the master sounds glorious on 40W... although its totally unusable in this little room, especially without carpet and I'm only sitting just over a metre from the cab! I have my mic on a cab clamp and that flopped down when I got to 20W.

Just had a play about with a db meter on my phone. At 1W with the phone on my desk I get just over 80db, doesn't go higher when I go closer though and also doesn't go higher when I turn the wattage up so it must max out the mic on my phone 'cos its fucking rediculous in this room on 40W.

[Minerman]

Greg's telling you the truth about the little amp vs. the big amp Jdude...All the amps I've owned have been a mix of little to big, mostly little...But guess which amps sounded the best recorded??? The big amps, period...Don't get me wrong, you can get some great tones with smaller amps, there's no doubt about it, but the 50 & 100w amps I had destroy 'em on a recording...

I tried the decibel meter on a cell phone once or twice, but it just didn't represent the truth...I needed an actual decibel meter to find a true reading, so I can't really say what the actual, "scientific" differences were...

I'm gonna assume that when you had your new H&K amp up to "5" on the master in full power is probably about the noise levels that Greg records at most of the time...Most likely, that's around his starting point, & winds it up even further from there...That kind of noise level is what I keep bitching about here because the neighbors freak out when I'd do that...The amps I have now can get loud, but the levels are nothing compared to the 50 & 100w amps I had dude...

The Chupacabra in "plexi" mode was fairly loud, but in the hot-rodded modes, the volume would drop quite a bit...But it pushed just the right amount of air to make me happy with my tones/recordings...The DSL100H would totally annihilate the Chupa on sheer loudness though...When I'd get it up to about 5 on the master, stuff on the walls would literally start vibrating & hit the floor...It was glorious, but it was fuckin' loud...

The Mini Jubilee ain't too bad, I think because of the EL34's, but the EVH LBX I have gets pretty farty sounding when you wind it up...It's exactly what Greg mentioned too, the transformers & smaller power sections just can't keep up with a big amp...I'm sure the EL84's in the EVH are part of why I don't care for it when it's wound up high, it just gets flabby/loose/farty sounding to me...The Mini Jubilee does it too, but it's not quite as bad...I'm not sure, but it may be the EL34's that make it a little better at those noise levels than the EVH...
Or, it could all be in my mind too...

But don't get discouraged dude, the tones you've been getting with your new amp are miles ahead of what you had before, & there's nothing wrong with them at all, in fact they're really good...

[Lt. Bob]

a 50 watt amp isn't really that much louder ..... it just has a higher perceived volume because of the headroom ( as greg has said ).
To be twice as loud takes ten times the power is the rule of thumb.
So twice as much power is NOT twice as loud.

[Greg_L]

a 50 watt amp isn't really that much louder ..... it just has a higher perceived volume because of the headroom ( as greg has said ).
To be twice as loud takes ten times the power is the rule of thumb.
So twice as much power is NOT twice as loud.

Right, it's not even close to that. The actual difference in loudness between 50 and 100 watts is negligible. The perceived difference is a little more substantial. The 100 watt seems and feels louder, but it's really just clearer with more headroom.

[JD01]

Greg's telling you the truth about the little amp vs. the big amp Jdude...All the amps I've owned have been a mix of little to big, mostly little...But guess which amps sounded the best recorded??? The big amps, period...Don't get me wrong, you can get some great tones with smaller amps, there's no doubt about it, but the 50 & 100w amps I had destroy 'em on a recording...

I tried the decibel meter on a cell phone once or twice, but it just didn't represent the truth...I needed an actual decibel meter to find a true reading, so I can't really say what the actual, "scientific" differences were...

I'm gonna assume that when you had your new H&K amp up to "5" on the master in full power is probably about the noise levels that Greg records at most of the time...Most likely, that's around his starting point, & winds it up even further from there...That kind of noise level is what I keep bitching about here because the neighbors freak out when I'd do that...The amps I have now can get loud, but the levels are nothing compared to the 50 & 100w amps I had dude...

The Chupacabra in "plexi" mode was fairly loud, but in the hot-rodded modes, the volume would drop quite a bit...But it pushed just the right amount of air to make me happy with my tones/recordings...The DSL100H would totally annihilate the Chupa on sheer loudness though...When I'd get it up to about 5 on the master, stuff on the walls would literally start vibrating & hit the floor...It was glorious, but it was fuckin' loud...

The Mini Jubilee ain't too bad, I think because of the EL34's, but the EVH LBX I have gets pretty farty sounding when you wind it up...It's exactly what Greg mentioned too, the transformers & smaller power sections just can't keep up with a big amp...I'm sure the EL84's in the EVH are part of why I don't care for it when it's wound up high, it just gets flabby/loose/farty sounding to me...The Mini Jubilee does it too, but it's not quite as bad...I'm not sure, but it may be the EL34's that make it a little better at those noise levels than the EVH...
Or, it could all be in my mind too...

But don't get discouraged dude, the tones you've been getting with your new amp are miles ahead of what you had before, & there's nothing wrong with them at all, in fact they're really good...

Oh, I'm not discouraged with it at all - loving the new amp, getting the tones I need at sensible volume levels. I might be able to push it a little louder when I have carpet, but that's not for a few weeks.

[Minerman]

a 50 watt amp isn't really that much louder ..... it just has a higher perceived volume because of the headroom ( as greg has said ).
To be twice as loud takes ten times the power is the rule of thumb.
So twice as much power is NOT twice as loud.

Right, it's not even close to that. The actual difference in loudness between 50 and 100 watts is negligible. The perceived difference is a little more substantial. The 100 watt seems and feels louder, but it's really just clearer with more headroom.

Both Bob & Gerg speak the truth...Both of 'em tried to get this through my thick skull when I was waiting on the DSL100H to arrive...
I thought the 1/2 power switch would make it half as loud...It did make a difference, but not as much as I thought it would...

My Mini Jubilee, which has sorta "new" power reduction circuitry does a decent job of lowering the noise in 5w mode...Using the meters in the daw, 20w mode is right around 6db louder than the 5w mode...It does make a difference at lower settings on the master, but once it's wound up, it's still pretty loud regardless of the power setting...

Oh, I'm not discouraged with it at all - loving the new amp, getting the tones I need at sensible volume levels. I might be able to push it a little louder when I have carpet, but that's not for a few weeks.

And you shouldn't be discouraged with your tones either Jdude, I personally think the tones you're getting with your new amp are great man...There's just no comparison between the H&K amp versus the Blackstar...The H&K annihilates the Blackstar period...

What's great about your setup now is you can get those killer tones at noise levels that are acceptable for you...That's the key dude, & you're killin' it with the new setup...

[Greg_L]

I'm pretty sure the DSL uses a pentode/triode switch to cut power. It's not really halving the power, but it's disabling parts of the power tubes. A pentode tube has five working parts (pent) and switching them to triode cuts that down to three (tri). You're turning off the suppression grid and the screen grid of the pentode. The suppression grid keeps hot fiesty electrons from bouncing all over the place inside the tube, and the screen grid sort of funnels electrons straight to the plate. Both of these grids make the tube very efficient. Turning them off puts the tube in triode mode, which involves just the basic essentials - plate, control grid, cathode - and this makes the tube behave much less efficiently, therefore, less power.


JD's amp, since it apparently involves heat, must have some kind of mini-attenuator built in, or some kind of power scaling. Both create heat and both allow the power tubes to stay in pentode operation while cutting output power.