New Honey Hunters - Pretend

[Armistice]

FILES REMOVED. Thanks for playing...



Another sub-3 minute shorty... I don't know what's come over me.

This was the track I was talking about in the One Take thread awhile back and I also did a video of me miming to it and posted that as well. It didn't have any words then, and I was struggling to work out what it would be about so I just chucked a bunch of lines I'd picked up along the way that I thought would sound good in a song into it and made them rhyme - they didn't actually mean anything, then over the course of about a week it became clear what the song would be about as I hacked in and removed, changed, kept, added etc. As you do.

Possibly the only track I've ever done that has a single main guitar track. A few others appear in the chorus, but in the verse it's just one.

__________________________________________________________

I've cleared all the other versions away... this is where I'm at. I think I've solved the 'blooming' bass issue. Still playing around with new reverb on vocals...

[JD01]

This is generally good, Armi.
Like I get with my mixes though, its got the muddy woofy cloud over parts of it, particularly with that floor tom on the right, sounds tidy, but rings out.
That being said - I don't really give a shit.
The only thing I think you could really spend time improving is your bass sound - sounds pretty undefined on this one, not much note definition - I think think its blending with your kick too much. Taking a stab at what's needed - roll of the really low lows and give it some upper mids. You'll find out what works. Just think if you could hear the attack on the bass more it would give the whole thing more impact on the beat.

Like the odd ending - as usual, good tune.

[Armistice]

This is generally good, Armi.
Like I get with my mixes though, its got the muddy woofy cloud over parts of it, particularly with that floor tom on the right, sounds tidy, but rings out.
That being said - I don't really give a shit.
The only thing I think you could really spend time improving is your bass sound - sounds pretty undefined on this one, not much note definition - I think think its blending with your kick too much. Taking a stab at what's needed - roll of the really low lows and give it some upper mids. You'll find out what works. Just think if you could hear the attack on the bass more it would give the whole thing more impact on the beat.

Like the odd ending - as usual, good tune.

You're right about the bass. It was annoying me and I was tinkering too much with it. Problem with it was when I recorded it I was mucking around with bass profiles on the Kemper and for reasons which made sense at the time it was a more overdriven sound than I'd normally use, or which would suit that particular piece of music.

It lacks definition because it was fuzzed up, so I've retracked it just now with a cleaner profile and put that in, with fuzzy bass way back in the background - probably not noticeable. In theory it should be an improvement but I've listened to it all too much today so can't really tell any more. Also reined in the ringing tom by shortening the release and turned them all down a couple of dB.

[Manslick]

I love this. I can't really judge the sonics because I'm listening to it through my television which has a sucky sound but the song itself I really really like

[Manslick]

And it does sound good. I can't really hear much lowering it all but the vocals are clear the guitars are clear and yeah it's very cool. And sorry for double posting but I have to talk into this remote and go through kind of crazy browser anyway great song

[Armistice]

And it does sound good. I can't really hear much lowering it all but the vocals are clear the guitars are clear and yeah it's very cool. And sorry for double posting but I have to talk into this remote and go through kind of crazy browser anyway great song

Thanks Manslick.

Sounds like an interesting tech set up you have there.

[TripleM]

I went right to mix #3.

The guitars sound great. All of them. I like the vocal sound too. Snare sound is great.

Cymbals all around are a little sizzly and/or high up in the mix. They sound very clear. Just maybe a bit hot.

The kick is a little muffled. The bass is covering it a bit. The bass is a little loud and a little boomy.

All the things I mentioned involve minor adjustments. I thought the overall mix sounds real good.

[Armistice]

I went right to mix #3.

The guitars sound great. All of them. I like the vocal sound too. Snare sound is great.

Cymbals all around are a little sizzly and/or high up in the mix. They sound very clear. Just maybe a bit hot.

The kick is a little muffled. The bass is covering it a bit. The bass is a little loud and a little boomy.

All the things I mentioned involve minor adjustments. I thought the overall mix sounds real good.

Thanks Trip..

I've incorporated various tweaks suggested above into v4, which I won't put up just yet. Sounds a bit clearer in the bottom end. Been referencing it against other recent mixes and it was a little loud down there. Cheers

[JD01]

Hurry up with Mix 4 then, Armi. I've just made a coffee

[Greg_L]

Listened to version 3....

There's something on the drum overheads that is highlighting a little too much sizzle. I don't know if it's the overhead samples themselves or an ambience added, but the kick and snare activate it too. It's not so bad with the kick and snare, but cymbals are quite sizzly IMO.

Speaking of kick drum, it could stand to have more thump. IMO the bass guitar sounds kind of weak as it is right now, but I think it would hold a good spot as-is if the kick did more of the low end heavy lifting. I'd bet that bass guitar tone would work nicely with a stronger kick drum underneath everything.

Your vocal performance is nice as always, but I think the vocal track tone is a little thin and nasally. It's a little almost AM radio-ish. I think a fuller smoother vocal track sound would suit your voice better.

Guitars sound great, no problem there.

[Armistice]

Listened to version 3....

There's something on the drum overheads that is highlighting a little too much sizzle. I don't know if it's the overhead samples themselves or an ambience added, but the kick and snare activate it too. It's not so bad with the kick and snare, but cymbals are quite sizzly IMO.

Speaking of kick drum, it could stand to have more thump. IMO the bass guitar sounds kind of weak as it is right now, but I think it would hold a good spot as-is if the kick did more of the low end heavy lifting. I'd bet that bass guitar tone would work nicely with a stronger kick drum underneath everything.

Your vocal performance is nice as always, but I think the vocal track tone is a little thin and nasally. It's a little almost AM radio-ish. I think a fuller smoother vocal track sound would suit your voice better.

Guitars sound great, no problem there.

Ha. Haven't seen you in one of my song threads for ages... Thanks for the listen.

What you've said is not dissimilar to what Triple M was saying and (I think) I've addressed a lot of if in v4 which I haven't put up yet. Problem I have with vocals is the lack of objectivity and or knowledge about what to do where, in EQ terms, so I'm forever cutting away at what I think are problematic frequencies based on what I'm hearing, which, like lots of us, I don't much like, given its my voice. Probably I go in too hard too often.

I had been using possibly too much attack on the kick sample - so it was quite soft - and I'd already reduced that and enhanced some frequencies up higher, but as I said, haven't posted it yet. Problem with VST drums, generally, is either you're already using compressed/EQ'd samples based on what someone thinks might be good for a particular genre, or you're not and don't necessarily know exactly what to do with the raw samples. I'm in the latter camp, but after years, am slowly getting to grips with it. Always interesting to hear from actual recording drummers what the issues are.

I'll go back to it this morning and have a listen and see what else I can do, particularly with the vocal. It's not, intrinsically, a thin sounding track, given it's quite low in my register. Not sure what I can do with nasally though. That might just be my voice.

[Greg_L]

Ha. Haven't seen you in one of my song threads for ages... Thanks for the listen.

I know, I need to be more active in here across the board.

Always interesting to hear from actual recording drummers what the issues are.

I don't really know if it's the sample or what you're doing to it. But for starters, just bring the kick up. In my experience most sample using non-drummers over-process and/or bury their drums out of inexperience, fear, ignorance, you name it. If you're not a drummer you just don't know what real drums played by real people sound like as far as mixing them goes. I get it. Just train yourself into making your drums louder than you think they should be. That's probably just about the right spot. I'm a firm believer that the drum sub-mix is what separates a great mix from something that sounds home recorded.

I'll go back to it this morning and have a listen and see what else I can do, particularly with the vocal. It's not, intrinsically, a thin sounding track, given it's quite low in my register. Not sure what I can do with nasally though. That might just be my voice.

I doubt it's your voice. You have a good mature "manly" voice. I believe what I'm hearing is simply something you're doing to the track.

[Armistice]

Ha. Haven't seen you in one of my song threads for ages... Thanks for the listen.

I know, I need to be more active in here across the board.

Always interesting to hear from actual recording drummers what the issues are.

I don't really know if it's the sample or what you're doing to it. But for starters, just bring the kick up. In my experience most sample using non-drummers over-process and/or bury their drums out of inexperience, fear, ignorance, you name it. If you're not a drummer you just don't know what real drums played by real people sound like as far as mixing them goes. I get it. Just train yourself into making your drums louder than you think they should be. That's probably just about the right spot. I'm a firm believer that the drum sub-mix is what separates a great mix from something that sounds home recorded.

I'll go back to it this morning and have a listen and see what else I can do, particularly with the vocal. It's not, intrinsically, a thin sounding track, given it's quite low in my register. Not sure what I can do with nasally though. That might just be my voice.

I doubt it's your voice. You have a good mature "manly" voice. I believe what I'm hearing is simply something you're doing to the track.

"Manly" - I like it. I've reduced a lot of my earlier EQ-ing - seems a little clearer now but I've listened so many times I can't tell any more.

And you're right about the non-drummer thing. I remember Bubba got his son to do some drums for one of my tunes for the last album - and sent me the wav files and I had absolutely no idea what to do with them. Still probably don't. I turned the kick up a smidgeon, reduced the attack so it should have a little more obvious thump and added some highs in - hopefully that's going in the right direction.

[Tadpui]

Listening to the latest mix with moar glock. I think it's nice and balanced overall. I wouldn't complain about anything, it's an interesting arrangement and that goes a long ways. Everything is clean and clear.

The kick and its ambiance are prominent but not overbearing. The glock might be too loud, but not having heard the previous mixes I think it and its ambiance add a nice focal point. I'd even automate it to back it out a few dB in the middle of the song and bring it back later, just to ease its omnipresence throughout the whole mix. I wouldn't mind hearing more vocal, maybe a double mixed in to give it some beef. Or if you've got a hi-pass or low-shelf on the vocal, see what happens if you lower the cutoff by 10 or 20 Hz. I've got my sub crossed over at 80Hz, and I really like to juuuust hear the low end of a male voice start to engage the sub. Although that's tough...mine always come out either too thin or too boomy. There's a magic scoop to make down there somewhere that I've yet to discover.

Fine job, and a very good original tune!

[rayc]

Glok'nroll.
I don't mind the kick...it's not all click which suits my ears n taste.
Vocal...I like it...putting the high pass just below the lowest fundamental is an easy out.

[JD01]

Armi - I'm on Mix 4 now.
The bass thing I commented on earlier seems better, now I think the bass and the kick are clashing horribly - anyway else hearing this? I'm on my fancy nice listening headphones not my reference cans at the moment. When you hit a note on the bass and kick together there's almost like a low-end resonance that comes over the mix. In a couple of places it feels almost like the mix pumps when the kick and bass hit those heavy single notes together.

Maybe the kick is just too loud.

[Armistice]

Armi - I'm on Mix 4 now.
The bass thing I commented on earlier seems better, now I think the bass and the kick are clashing horribly - anyway else hearing this? I'm on my fancy nice listening headphones not my reference cans at the moment. When you hit a note on the bass and kick together there's almost like a low-end resonance that comes over the mix. In a couple of places it feels almost like the mix pumps when the kick and bass hit those heavy single notes together.

Maybe the kick is just too loud.

I spent yesterday redoing reverbs and drums on all the new tracks to date, so they all have different mixes now - today I'm listening to some reference tracks that are somewhat similar in instrumentation to check levels of various things.

I'm being hamstrung at the moment somewhat by having house painters outside - don't want to turn the volume up too much to alert them to what I'm doing, and GF being in a state of stress at work because of some new project, so also don't want to turn up the volume while she's working - the low end is the hardest to get right at low volume, so I'll have a listen again this morning - I'm well past v4 now anyway because of the reverb.

Also decided that getting a decent drum sound - and by that I specifically mean snare - was altogether too random - sometimes I'm happy with it, mostly I'm not, so I dived into the Slate interface and started twiddling things I don't normally twiddle with much, in order to understand WTF is actually going on - this ended up, once I sort of worked it out, in all the new songs to date having new drum mixes as well. So lots of readjusting to do today.

Which is a roundabout way of saying "Noted, will look into it..."

[Armistice]

Armi - I'm on Mix 4 now.
The bass thing I commented on earlier seems better, now I think the bass and the kick are clashing horribly - anyway else hearing this? I'm on my fancy nice listening headphones not my reference cans at the moment. When you hit a note on the bass and kick together there's almost like a low-end resonance that comes over the mix. In a couple of places it feels almost like the mix pumps when the kick and bass hit those heavy single notes together.

Maybe the kick is just too loud.

I think I've worked it out...

Now what I'm hearing is a ringing out, specifically of the main note on the bass - a B/7th fret on the E string, and more specifically when it comes up against Tom 2 at the same time.

So I dived in and looked at frequencies and found this on the bass track.

Capture.PNG

So you can see the first of each of these 3 pairs of 2 notes is the B, the next is the next note in the song, an A# - E string, 6th fret. Ignoring the colouring, which is pitch, you can see that there's a lot less volume on the A#s compared to the Bs - but I'm just plunking the same thing, one fret down. It's just dying down way more quickly.

Then looking at Tom 2

Capture1.PNG

It, coincidentally, has a fundamental note that's also that B. And I put that notch in after working this out, it was in fact slightly boosted originally as that's what that pre-set does.

So I think what I have here is some form of extra resonant note on the bass itself - I guess I could play it on the A string, but it may do the same thing - might not be the string, but the bass - combining with Tom 2 at the same time giving this woofy blooming sound.

So I'm doing some volume enveloping on the bass when it plays the B to dive it down a bit after the second note, so it's not ringing out as much, putting a bit of a narrow notch on the note itself, and clamping the compressor a little tighter, and then notching out the same frequency on Tom2 and also a narrow notch on the kick, whose fundamental frequency is just a bit under that, but has plenty of energy around that note.

Sounding lots clearer. Depending upon what else I get done today I might post v.5 later. As mentioned I've put a new reverb treatment on the vocals and dried up the reverb everywhere else significantly - sounds more like one of those 70s mixes you like so much...

[TripleM]

Listening to Mix #4. I think the low end is the only remaining problem. The bass has a low frequency that is really jumping out. It causes the bass to get lost in the mix, but then pop out for a few notes. The kick sounds OK. Maybe just a weeee bit boomy.

Everything else sounds great.

[JD01]

Jesus, armi. You've gone full science on it.
Try it on the 2nd fret of the A string, I bet it'll be different.